Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[Riverwalker]

why is that people forget that when God created everything, Time was part of that creation

God is eternal.....everywhen and time puts no limits on Him.  Time is merely the meter by which this drama we call life is measured

When we enter into eternal life, time won't matter to us either

Time is something of an illusion anyway....no matter when it is, it is always...now.

All The World's A Stage - Poem by William Shakespeare
 

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

William Shakespeare

[SavedOnebyGrace]

17 hours ago, Kan said:

Thanks, for posting that. It makes it clear why you follow his thoughts.

The texts he uses do not contradict the traditional view of the creation, the fall of Lucifer etc, but if you have another theory in mind while reading, it is possible to believe what has been proposed, even thinking that the texts support the theory.

I just wanted to point out one issue - his understanding of "the waters" in the beginning, has crossed his mind, but he remains with the idea that they are H2O, and not what the Bible uses, say in Job and Psalms. 

The "waters" are not tap water as we know it. So it can't suggest a pre creation flood, even though it seems like that.

Before we go on, you need to understand that there is probably 20 variations or more of the Gap Theory.  Even on this site, there are multiple views on the Gap Theory.  While I quote and rep Hazard quite often because of the resources Hazard uses, I'm probably more in agreement with Other One with respect to the Gap Theory.

You've lost me in your written thoughts.  I suggest you rewrite it another way clearly stating your objection with scriptural proof.

[Kan]

32 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Before we go on, you need to understand that there is probably 20 variations or more of the Gap Theory.  Even on this site, there are multiple views on the Gap Theory.  While I quote and rep Hazard quite often because of the resources Hazard uses, I'm probably more in agreement with Other One with respect to the Gap Theory.

You've lost me in your written thoughts.  I suggest you rewrite it another way clearly stating your objection with scriptural proof.

20 variations on the gap theory - no surprise there. 

I don't want to elaborate on what I have written at this stage, mainly because it is another subject on its own - about the "waters" etc.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 minutes ago, Kan said:

20 variations on the gap theory - no surprise there. 

Thousands of ships without anchor, in an ocean of confusion, ready to be smashed on the rocks of infidelity.

And how many variations of YEC?  Probably close to infinite.  It has to be redefined as science continues to prove their theories are without merit.

[Kan]

1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

And how many variations of YEC?  Probably close to infinite.  It has to be redefined as science continues to prove there theories are without merit.

The saints don't believe in umpteen versions of the creation account, and have never called themselves YEC's or OEC's or whatever, they simply believe the written word in its plainest and most obvious meaning. I have never heard of any disagreement among those who take the Bible the way it reads, and trust its contents.

I read Genesis on my own volition at the age of 5, and nothing came to me about double floods, evolution and the dozens of Satanic delusions about it. To this day I do not believe that God lied to me through the scriptures, and to this day, having tested and tried the word, I do not see it any differently. The Lord has given me details of the creation which would satisfy scientific minds, things which are very difficult to comprehend, and yet I have never questioned its simplicity, which stands true through all time.

If the saints have not picked up on these theories in the past, including the writers of the Bible...who have not expressly said anything like the gap theory...I question it, and I totally reject it, for a thousand reasons if not one.

[HAZARD]

The devil does not want anyone to know about his previous reign on the earth because this knowledge would expose completely expose him for who he is and what he is. he is a murderer, a thief and a liar, John 8:44.

He does not want anyone to know that the original creation was destroyed because of him and his rebel angles who followed him.  He wanted to be like God, and he failed, he told Adam and Eve they would become like God and they fell for this lie. We want to be like God but only in the manner of being completely good as He is, not actually be a god?

 

This deception, this hiding and denying there was an original creation, ignoring the hundreds of Scriptures which prove there was such a rebellion and destruction of the earth, the turning off of light and the flooding of the earth only gives ammo the second satanic lie, THE THEORY OF EVOLUTUION.

 

Deceived people cannot even begin to reasonably explain the origins and purposes of the three great domains--heaven, earth, and sea and, as if sensing a dire lack, some adherents seek out what is called, the "Theory of Everything"

 

2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth.

 

Power belongeth unto God (see Psalm 62:11).

Things that are seen were not made of things that do appear. Just look at the Periodic Table (the law of octaves preceded it). The difference between substances just basically has to do with the number of bits. All substances (we are told) are measured by protons, neutrons, and electrons. The thing that differs between substances is just the numbers. It looks like everything is composed of just little bits of power that can push or pull, etc. Just BITS OF POWER. God SPOKE and things came into existence. They say electrons are invisible. All these visible things are made from invisible power.

 

Charles Darwin himself admitted in writing that his "THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST" was probably all a farce, a theory, yet this satanic world not only believes this lie, they promote it throughout the world in schools and universities.

 

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy."
--Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229
(endnote as quoted on Animals that Defy Evolution Part III)

"Such simple instincts as bees making a beehive could be sufficient to overthrow my whole theory."
--Charles Darwin.

 

Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools,"

[HAZARD]

49 minutes ago, Kan said:

The saints don't believe in umpteen versions of the creation account, and have never called themselves YEC's or OEC's or whatever, they simply believe the written word in its plainest and most obvious meaning. I have never heard of any disagreement among those who take the Bible the way it reads, and trust its contents.

I read Genesis on my own volition at the age of 5, and nothing came to me about double floods, evolution and the dozens of Satanic delusions about it. To this day I do not believe that God lied to me through the scriptures, and to this day, having tested and tried the word, I do not see it any differently. The Lord has given me details of the creation which would satisfy scientific minds, things which are very difficult to comprehend, and yet I have never questioned its simplicity, which stands true through all time.

If the saints have not picked up on these theories in the past, including the writers of the Bible...who have not expressly said anything like the gap theory...I question it, and I totally reject it, for a thousand reasons if not one.

2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools,"

Since reading the Scriptures since age 5, you obviously have missed these which clearly show two different floods.

Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures

 

CALLING LUCIFERS FLOOD, L.F.

 

CALLING NOAH'S FLOOD, N.F.

 

You should plainly see there was tow floods on the earth, one caused by lucifers rebellion, the other by mans rebellion.

 

Thing is, its not just a quick skim over read, one has to actually pick up a Bible and check out each and every scripture to see the truth.

 

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”

 

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

 

 

 Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

 

 

I hope you take the time to read and check the Scriptures for yourself and make up your own mind as to what you want to believe.

 

Cheers Mate,

[Riverwalker]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

And how many variations of YEC?  Probably close to infinite.  It has to be redefined as science continues to prove their theories are without merit.

YEC Version 1.0

 

God did it, as He said He did it  In the Time Frame He Said he Did It

 

With light days before the sun was made.....with birds before land animals were made

 

and man formed out of the dust of the earth and life breathed into Him

 

Just as He said He did

 

Since when is God limited by time?

 

 

 

[Kan]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The devil does not want anyone to know about his previous reign on the earth because this knowledge would expose completely expose him for who he is and what he is. he is a murderer, a thief and a liar, John 8:44.

He does not want anyone to know that the original creation was destroyed because of him and his rebel angles who followed him.  He wanted to be like God, and he failed, he told Adam and Eve they would become like God and they fell for this lie. We want to be like God but only in the manner of being completely good as He is, not actually be a god?

 

This deception, this hiding and denying there was an original creation, ignoring the hundreds of Scriptures which prove there was such a rebellion and destruction of the earth, the turning off of light and the flooding of the earth only gives ammo the second satanic lie, THE THEORY OF EVOLUTUION.

 

Deceived people cannot even begin to reasonably explain the origins and purposes of the three great domains--heaven, earth, and sea and, as if sensing a dire lack, some adherents seek out what is called, the "Theory of Everything"

 

2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth.

 

Power belongeth unto God (see Psalm 62:11).

Things that are seen were not made of things that do appear. Just look at the Periodic Table (the law of octaves preceded it). The difference between substances just basically has to do with the number of bits. All substances (we are told) are measured by protons, neutrons, and electrons. The thing that differs between substances is just the numbers. It looks like everything is composed of just little bits of power that can push or pull, etc. Just BITS OF POWER. God SPOKE and things came into existence. They say electrons are invisible. All these visible things are made from invisible power.

 

Charles Darwin himself admitted in writing that his "THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST" was probably all a farce, a theory, yet this satanic world not only believes this lie, they promote it throughout the world in schools and universities.

 

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy."
--Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229
(endnote as quoted on Animals that Defy Evolution Part III)

"Such simple instincts as bees making a beehive could be sufficient to overthrow my whole theory."
--Charles Darwin.

 

Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools,"

Having a doctrine of a pre creation flood, does not expose Satan at all. Besides the rebellion of Satan began in heaven, from where Jesus said He was cast out and fell.

The only reason Satan was allowed dominion in the earth was because Adam and Eve, - the rightful representatives of earth, and for whom the earth was made, had forfeited their position through yielding to another more powerful, through sin. After the pair sinned, Satan took it upon himself to represent earth, and hence we find him standing in behalf of earthlings in heaven, arguing his case, for example about the life of Job.

The earth was never made for angels, let alone Satan. The whole Bible talks about the earth made for man. It never mentions another earth, prior to creation, that was supposed to be for Satan and his angels.

The angels were created to minister to all of God's creation, which included countless worlds He has made. They were not to colonize any planet. But since sin entered into our world, Satan and his hosts have been restricted to this earth, especially after the death of Christ, when he was no longer permitted to enter heaven as our representative. Christ has won the earth back, and stands as our representative. In prophetic view, before His sacrifice, Jesus declared the enemy as falling from heaven to earth like lightning.

The idea of an occupation of the earth before Adam and Eve were placed there, is a pure fabrication designed by Satan to bring confusion to the unwary, and to turn minds away from relying on the simple and yet profound writings of the scriptures. If what you propose is not so plain that a child can see it, what is it?

 

 

[Kan]

3 hours ago, HAZARD said:

2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools,"

Since reading the Scriptures since age 5, you obviously have missed these which clearly show two different floods.

Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures

 

CALLING LUCIFERS FLOOD, L.F.

 

CALLING NOAH'S FLOOD, N.F.

 

You should plainly see there was tow floods on the earth, one caused by lucifers rebellion, the other by mans rebellion.

 

Thing is, its not just a quick skim over read, one has to actually pick up a Bible and check out each and every scripture to see the truth.

 

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”

 

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

 

 

 Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

 

 

I hope you take the time to read and check the Scriptures for yourself and make up your own mind as to what you want to believe.

 

Cheers Mate,

In my proud opinion, this is a classic exercise in playing with words, and it can be done with almost any writings. It does not prove your point, it is only a continuous repetition of an idea, in prose form.

It looks pleasing to some people, I grant you that.

The word "replenish" does not immediately suggest a prior destruction, but merely a condition that needs attention. The earth was designed to respond to the care of our ancestors. That does not mean it was a rubbish heap at all.

Their work was to enhance and modify things for the benefit of the whole. This too does not suggest that the earth would have gone down hill without them, not at all, but rather that their work was of an entirely different nature than what we experience today. That's something we could talk about another time.

None of the texts that you have quoted seem to support the theory you have put forward, either individually or contextually.

And as for "scoffers in the last days..." I think it is way too early in this discussion to label anyone who opposes the idea, as that.