DO YOU BELIEVE ITS OKAY TO EAT PORK, AS A BELIEVER IN GOD ?

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

SinnerSaved :

   19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Question: Who are they who are under the law? (Maybe Lev 24:8)

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 

Question: Have you ever lied in your life? If so, are you not guilty of breaking the law? This is not graded on the curve, it is pass or fail, one strike, and you are out. We are either perfect, or we are sinners. So, if you have ever sinned, you have effectually, already eaten bacon, and you cannot take that back, it is done.

The topic can be made very complex. I tend to take a clue from Paul (if anyone should have had a handle on both the Law (as a Pharissee) and grace (as the apostle to the gentiles under the New Covenant), it should have been him. He said:

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Now, avoiding consumption of unclean things was the law, so was Sabbath  keeping. Paul made that statement in his letter the the Roman church, which was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, so, I think that makes it even more appropriate to consider.

Let each be persuaded, likely means that. If you are convinced that you should avoid pork, by all means do so! Do not violate your conscience:

17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4)

Circumcision, was also part of the law. With that in mind, consider this passage:

 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Now this passage is a dandy:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6)

That should give you some things to ponder as you search this topic out.

I would also refer you to something I wrote a long time ago, and used to be on the worthy website, but has since been lost. Mind you, if I wrote it again, it might come out different, I am not unchanging, but it might be useful to make you think about things which you may not have yet, which is generally what I try to accomplish. That link takes you to something, that is too lengthy to post in a thread, but may give you some more 'starting places'. If I posted it here, many or most, would not read it anyway,

Kudos to you, for looking deeply into this topic, to work out an understanding.

I have read your link to the letter, and I find a couple things to be answered, if you will, Omega man I respect you , and I know you have a lot of wisdom, and its been a real great learning with you, so with that said, I am going to ask a few of my questions that I have not gotten what I believe to be a correct answer to my questions for my own conscience ,

 I totally understand the instructions of old, and I still think that the dietary laws are valid to day for the believer , if it be jew or gentile.

do to the fact that God went out of His way to tell noah that he was going to send clean and unclean to the ark,

in Leviticus we have the dietary law, given and said what it is that is good and not good in the eyes of the lord,

then we have in acts 10 talking about unclean animals and what has not touched peters lips, and so it shows that even after Christ, it is still valid about no unclean animals, but ,then people believe its about unclean that its clean but its really a to show about the entry for gentiles to be part of the children of God and is not about the animals, I know you know what I am saying.

 then you go to the book of Isaiah #66 and read what God himself is stating about swines flesh, and for me I believe truly that we are not to cross this line, for those pointed out and given as scripture to the subject,

second, that we are to discipline our selves to follow the word of the lord , and to follow if it be to the jew or the gentile for we are now all one grafted in , and all under one God that his word is and stands for all believers , as we all are saved , for all of our sins,

so by following by obedience to the scriptures given , and to not follow the worldly holiday like Christmas and all that, I think it be in the best intrest to be obedient as a holy bond servant , not swaying to if it be of the law of moses or the grace of Yashua

I am talking of abiding in the truth of instruction given by the mouth of the lord himself , not the 600 plus man made laws of what ever they could think of,i am not talking about that, I understand the law/ and or commandments as a school master also , but I also believe and this is where I differ from the rest but I feel and know I am in the right , for my conscience of faith rest in this,

that the law of moses is not done away , even though we are in the modern times, but Gods word is our law, and that when grace came through Yeshua, it came but not to cover the law which is in our hearts and mind, but to cover only the law of sin and death, most want to think it covers completely everything , and I think that is a false teaching from the get go,

I am still saved by grace and not by the works of my self so I cannot boast , but to be inline with obedience to the words out of Yahwehs mouth , it needs to be followed, and no law or covenant can cover this for we know that the lord is good, and just in all that he does, 

so I hope I am able to explain clearly what is on my heart, thank you for reading this,

 

[SINNERSAVED]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

SinnerSaved :

   19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Question: Who are they who are under the law? (Maybe Lev 24:8)

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 

Question: Have you ever lied in your life? If so, are you not guilty of breaking the law? This is not graded on the curve, it is pass or fail, one strike, and you are out. We are either perfect, or we are sinners. So, if you have ever sinned, you have effectually, already eaten bacon, and you cannot take that back, it is done.

The topic can be made very complex. I tend to take a clue from Paul (if anyone should have had a handle on both the Law (as a Pharissee) and grace (as the apostle to the gentiles under the New Covenant), it should have been him. He said:

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Now, avoiding consumption of unclean things was the law, so was Sabbath  keeping. Paul made that statement in his letter the the Roman church, which was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, so, I think that makes it even more appropriate to consider.

Let each be persuaded, likely means that. If you are convinced that you should avoid pork, by all means do so! Do not violate your conscience:

17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4)

Circumcision, was also part of the law. With that in mind, consider this passage:

 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Now this passage is a dandy:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6)

That should give you some things to ponder as you search this topic out.

I would also refer you to something I wrote a long time ago, and used to be on the worthy website, but has since been lost. Mind you, if I wrote it again, it might come out different, I am not unchanging, but it might be useful to make you think about things which you may not have yet, which is generally what I try to accomplish. That link takes you to something, that is too lengthy to post in a thread, but may give you some more 'starting places'. If I posted it here, many or most, would not read it anyway,

Kudos to you, for looking deeply into this topic, to work out an understanding.

I believe it top be the law of sin and death only, not all of the law, for it is now written in the hearts and minds of the saved and believer, but I do not believe it excuses the dietary law, or the commandments as to, it was given by God to His people , and we cannot , say that now we are aware and have knowledge of Gods word we are allowed to over look this by grace, nor are we allowed to continue to sin ,by being covered by grace, we cannot use grace as God forbid. we Go against His instruction, to the people if it be the people of old or the people of the new,

we are now ,...all one people, and one  spirit, and one God and One salvation, of believers, and if we are not disciplined spiritually,bodily and honoring Gods will, with our bodies as the temple, that holds the spirit ? for the dietary law was part of His will to the people, then why can we over look this , and say we are not like them,

for he that is given more, more is required, and He that is given less , less is required, this is truth ,

many may not want to agree, and that's okay, I am not preaching or teaching , but displaying my understanding to this view, as I am convicted by the holy spirit within me to share,

and to bring to light, and of what I believe many are missing  in the point of abiding in Christ, as the fruits of the spirit is evident, and not by works, but by faith , I also think this is to be a motion of faith ,to a holy and righteous God, and that all of His laws and instructions are Just, now that WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, would we be able to include the fruit of the tree of knowledge also now ?that we can eat it , after all its a fruit, ? I think not,

let no man deceive you, and test everything.

[other one]

Well, I have read what you have to say and I'll just say that I disagree with your thought process....    you seem to be rather set in your mind, so I think I'm done with the thread...

[SINNERSAVED]

23 minutes ago, other one said:

Well, I have read what you have to say and I'll just say that I disagree with your thought process....    you seem to be rather set in your mind, so I think I'm done with the thread...

and I respect that, but if it be where someone has scripture or is able to bring a solid case against what I have set in my mind, I am all ears, for I have shown my view,

and I have not come across yet any one to show me if I am really wrong, to think this way, I will not accept grace over law, that don't fly, it needs to be with in what Gods word is, and not assumptions,for the first step for me, is that I cannot see how grace, over rides the complete law, it is not what many have even researched, for I am seeking truth of scripture, and ,if someone has a view that will show me my thinking is wrong, I would love to see it,  I am learning like everyone else, but as we all have questions, getting the answers are not spontaneous all the time, don't be done  Otherone, I am open to advise always,

[other one]

Maybe later, right now I am tied up time wise. I trust you aren't going anywhere.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Perhaps sinnersaved, this is why it is called a new covenant, a better one. Not that there was anything actually wrong with the old one, For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. I think that obeying the dietary laws is fine, and you should do so if that is how you are convicted.

I like the spirit in which you are sharing these things.

I would add that the whole of Romans 14 should be read, and meditated upon, with regard to this topic also, not the food aspect necessarilly but just about matters of faith of others, looking not to stumble them, and managing our selves. I see you as not judgmental in this, and that is good.

I do have to wonder though, does this mean for you, that you are going to try to keep the whole law?

I would also point out that Act 15 might make an interesting read as well. I tend to think, that in as much as the law, was given to Jacobs descendants, and that Jesus told the disciples to tell other what He had told them, and did not instruct them to take the law out into the world, I am convicted that dietary laws, ceremonial laws, killing homosexuals and rebellious young people, is not intended for me. So, I live my life in liberty, yet am a slave to Christ.

Love God, love you neighbor. Before the flood, we were authorized to eat every green thing. If we did that now, we would die eating poisons. As far as we know, meat eating began with Noah. I do not know what to make of that, possible people ate meat, but it was never mentioned. Or, possibly the sinners ate meat, but Noah and family did not. In any, it was way after Noah, before people (and then only some people) seemed to be instructed not to eat unclean things. My point is, that I am not certain that there was ever a prohibition for anyone to abstain from eating anything before Leviticus, other than the fruit of the tree of life.

Seems like if it was a problem, there should have been a law, before the law, but God chose a people, to give the law to, and told them to keep it's statutes. Then, after the birth of the church, God tell Peter, in a vision, not to call unclean, what He had made clean. Certainly, that was a reference to the Gentiles, no doubt about that at all. I find it odd though, that God would choose as an illustration, a command to eat unclean things, that just seems peculiar, unless something had changed about the nature of Gods will and permissivnes, but, that is just me being too presumptuous.

I do not think it is that presumptuous, to see that the Apostles saw fit, not to burden Gentiles with the details of the Law, and that is where I find myself, as a gentile convert under the instruction of those God entrusted, to instruct me. You though, do what you think best, and nothing less.

[other one]

22 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

and I respect that, but if it be where someone has scripture or is able to bring a solid case against what I have set in my mind, I am all ears, for I have shown my view,

and I have not come across yet any one to show me if I am really wrong, to think this way, I will not accept grace over law, that don't fly, it needs to be with in what Gods word is, and not assumptions,for the first step for me, is that I cannot see how grace, over rides the complete law, it is not what many have even researched, for I am seeking truth of scripture, and ,if someone has a view that will show me my thinking is wrong, I would love to see it,  I am learning like everyone else, but as we all have questions, getting the answers are not spontaneous all the time, don't be done  Otherone, I am open to advise always,

 

20 hours ago, other one said:

Maybe later, right now I am tied up time wise. I trust you aren't going anywhere.

I appologise for the delay in posting.   i was involved in a couple of gatherings yesterday concerning a very dishearting football game, but later a much better recieved new years eve gathering with some friends from College days   45+ years ago now..

Played Spades till midnight talking and enjoying each others company.

 

As to our thread here, Omegaman touched on a large part of what my personal feelings are, but I'd start with Romans 13 especially with and after verse 8.   And I would continue through chapter 15.

Chapter 13 shows us that by loving our neighbor is fulfilling the law.   Specifically states "
"You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet"  but goes on to say "
if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

 

Chapter 14 tells us that  even though all things are OK to eat, and whatever days we want to hold as special are OK, or also OK to be not observed, that we must be careful not to push someone into eating or not observing a special day for for them it is wrong.

So for me, participating in this thread is a bit of a personal delima.     I'm caught between not wanting to tell you to do something that would violate your conscious, but on the other hand for you  to learn that it truly is alright to do so.  I hope you see where I'm coming from.

See, my problem is not that you think we are sill under the old laws, but you want to put me under those laws also, and that's where Chapter 15 kind of goes.    Paul tells us that we must work out our own salvation ourselves in another place, so it may be that because of our different makeup, the Holy Spirit may well not tell us to do or not do the same things at the same time in our walk     While I would never do anything that might cause you to stumble, I would also very much like for you to understand the freedom that Jesus gives us in the second covenant....   

We are all expected for foment and keep a relationship with the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and relationships are complicated....    so where do you draw the line in helping someone build that relationship and possibly damaging that relationship...     I hope you can see where I'm at in this thread and conversation...

I think the point comes down to if I thought it would keep you from falling I would never eat another bite of pork in my life...  but since I know it's no a big deal, I am also expected to help others to grow in their relationships so I can't really set back and let you push others back under the law when Paul has taught that we should not do that.....    The whole group of Apostles came to the conclusion that Gentiles should not be burdened with the old laws except for blood, strangled animals sexual morality.     So they are specifically saying that we are no longer under the old laws as long as we put ourselves in the position of loving our neighbors and the Lord.  Making Jesus our Lord and believing that the Father raised him from the dead.

How do you love the Lord.....   by listening to the things that Jesus himself told us to do.

 

 

[SINNERSAVED]

12 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Perhaps sinnersaved, this is why it is called a new covenant, a better one. Not that there was anything actually wrong with the old one, For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. I think that obeying the dietary laws is fine, and you should do so if that is how you are convicted.

I like the spirit in which you are sharing these things.

I would add that the whole of Romans 14 should be read, and meditated upon, with regard to this topic also, not the food aspect necessarilly but just about matters of faith of others, looking not to stumble them, and managing our selves. I see you as not judgmental in this, and that is good.

I do have to wonder though, does this mean for you, that you are going to try to keep the whole law?

I would also point out that Act 15 might make an interesting read as well. I tend to think, that in as much as the law, was given to Jacobs descendants, and that Jesus told the disciples to tell other what He had told them, and did not instruct them to take the law out into the world, I am convicted that dietary laws, ceremonial laws, killing homosexuals and rebellious young people, is not intended for me. So, I live my life in liberty, yet am a slave to Christ.

Love God, love you neighbor. Before the flood, we were authorized to eat every green thing. If we did that now, we would die eating poisons. As far as we know, meat eating began with Noah. I do not know what to make of that, possible people ate meat, but it was never mentioned. Or, possibly the sinners ate meat, but Noah and family did not. In any, it was way after Noah, before people (and then only some people) seemed to be instructed not to eat unclean things. My point is, that I am not certain that there was ever a prohibition for anyone to abstain from eating anything before Leviticus, other than the fruit of the tree of life.

Seems like if it was a problem, there should have been a law, before the law, but God chose a people, to give the law to, and told them to keep it's statutes. Then, after the birth of the church, God tell Peter, in a vision, not to call unclean, what He had made clean. Certainly, that was a reference to the Gentiles, no doubt about that at all. I find it odd though, that God would choose as an illustration, a command to eat unclean things, that just seems peculiar, unless something had changed about the nature of Gods will and permissivnes, but, that is just me being too presumptuous.

I do not think it is that presumptuous, to see that the Apostles saw fit, not to burden Gentiles with the details of the Law, and that is where I find myself, as a gentile convert under the instruction of those God entrusted, to instruct me. You though, do what you think best, and nothing less.

thank you Omegaman for that thought , and positive comments,

first, I am not going to try to keep the whole law, for the killing of those that are in violation, are not being killed do to the modern times we live, in,

but I know as it is a Sin and God looks against the willing sinner, that they are going to be Judged ,by the wrath of God, if they do not humble them selves and repent in the name of the Lord, to be forgiven, just as we are not justified or cleansed ,or forgiven with out true repentance and surrender to the glory of God,

 I am now though, convinced in my heart mind and soul , that what I am saying, of the keeping of the dietary law, is still valid until today , for these reasons, one it was given as special instructions, and it was highlighted, by ,in the beginning God said of the sacrificed bring in seven and of the none sacrifice bring in a pear, so we have clean and unclean established, for two reasons, that we have a order of how sacrifice and to have sacrifices was going to be , and then we have a separation of what God considers and states is Good and what is no good, just like the just and the unjust, we already are giving this by example, of the animals, and Yes noah did not eat meat as far as we can see,

now, it was given to the people the dietary laws, for three reasons that are clear, one that it was bad for your health which is evident by research and medical advise today , two it was, used to be the cleaners of the land like the garbage  units to help the environment, and three it was given as the statutes of God to set them selves apart from the other heathens and other people not called to God at that time, now Gods word is law, and it is the same before now and into the present , His words will not fade away ,nor will ever be voided by anything at all , not by man and his devises of cunning like the serpent or evil spirits and false teachings to say it was for these people long ago , and now God changes His mind, no.no. God forbid this, His word is asure as it was thousands of years ago its stands today ,

we also have in the same instruction about homosexuality at the time of Leviticus, and people today , say that that law has been done away with also , but no.no. it is still stands today as it did in the past, so Jesus comes along and says, and this is where it all hinges, and if you want to work around this, then you have found fault in God, and justified your own desires , Jesus said,not one jot, or tittle will be moved , or taken from what God has put forth from His word, the earth and heavens shall pass, but Gods word is forever and ever,  !! Warning, Warning, this over rides all the law and the grace Given by the law giver and the grace Giver, Jesus also says, I did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it,

so this all stands , Gods word is set, and He is the giver of the instruction to His people and it stands today , there is no where in scripture that says God Has gone back on His word and removed what was placed as a guide or instruction or commandment, so with this, we are told, this is where ,if my people who are called by my name and follow me , they shall be saved,

are we following Him ? by making His words of old and new to be voided ,because we like homosexuality and our bacon burgers today , have we not just shown the rejection of the word of God , and in the spirit of God we have just told God, I will do it my way and serve you on my terms and not as He wills, for I want this this and that and I am not going to give it up , for I do not want to be set apart as a believer or child of God , and deny the self, I don't want that cross, I want the cross of my own desire and I will meet you half way

I will not follow the dieatary law, the law on homosexuality , and I want to eat the fruit in the garden now , for it is all covered by Grace, and so I can have all that I want, for Grace covers and the law is voided and I am not going to follow this world for everyone agrees and Gods word  is not valid today, in my life, ?

this is where it is stated, not to live on bread alone , but by everyword , of God,

God has given His word, and we reject it, but we call our selves believers, ?

 I am just staing ,for food for thought, think about it, and if you still think you are following and being a doer of the word, and denying the self, are you picking up the cross, ?

have we been played and deceived , and not known about it, you cannot be smarter then the serpent,  only by the word and the holy spirit to guide us, so what does your spirit tell you today , and can you continue to rebel and say you are not ?

we are and given things to separate our selves from the world , if you do not think it was already given to us as knowledge to know, then you may be still blinded by the vises of the devil this is all my thought and conviction, I am not going to say this , and have people say I am preaching false doctrine, for it is all about the doctrines and scripture and the word of God , is truth , and if you don't agreeor don't like what I have just said, then do you really want truth , and follow Jesus , ? well it comes with a cost?

and believers need to know that cost, in Isaiah 66 it tells about Gods revenge on that person hiding behind a tree chewing on wines flesh, this is what is about to come, when He comes back, this is future, so reason this scripture away and see if we are following the steps and doing what Jesus said we need to be doing? thank you and I wanted to get this out to you

there is a book a great read it is called RESTORATION returning the Torah of God, to the disciples of Jesus , its a great book, the author is D,thomas Lancaster,  please have a open mind, on all that I gave you here thank you, blessings

[thereselittleflower]

23 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

and I respect that, but if it be where someone has scripture or is able to bring a solid case against what I have set in my mind, I am all ears, for I have shown my view,

and I have not come across yet any one to show me if I am really wrong, to think this way, I will not accept grace over law, that don't fly, it needs to be with in what Gods word is, and not assumptions,for the first step for me, is that I cannot see how grace, over rides the complete law, it is not what many have even researched, for I am seeking truth of scripture, and ,if someone has a view that will show me my thinking is wrong, I would love to see it,  I am learning like everyone else, but as we all have questions, getting the answers are not spontaneous all the time, don't be done  Otherone, I am open to advise always,

Paul equated the Old Covenant to a taskmaster for school age children, and the New Covenant to the fullness of God's revelation for adults.

Just as a young child is not allowed to cross a street by themselves, but an adult is, so were the Jewish people not allowed to eat port, etc but we as christians are.

 

Does this make sense?

 

[Riverwalker]

In Acts 10 God Made a point of telling Peter things have changed.....what we can eat...who can believe

 

Acts 10:

⁹ The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. ¹⁰ Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance ¹¹ and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. ¹² In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. ¹³ And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

¹⁴ But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

¹⁵ And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” ¹⁶ This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

So there is no longer any biblical reason not to eat pork. And by rights no one should be offended if you eat pork.

 

HOWEVER  the bible does say whatever is not of faith is sin, and if you are convicted that your eating pork is wrong, then you should not do it.

 

Now..as for me, pass the biscuits and gravy please