Once Saved , Always Saved ?

[ghtan]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus didn't call Peter Satan.  That's nonsense.   Jesus spoke to Satan as the source of Peter's denial that Jesus would be put to death.  Jesus recognized that Satan was speaking through Peter and Jesus was addressing Satan not Peter.   You need to read your Bible, better.

I don't need to prove that God ever gave anyone the power to do miracles.  The fact is that Judas' complete biblical profile gives us no indication that he was a believer.  God used Judas to do his will.   God can empower someone to do miracles if he chooses, because God is sovereign and can do as he pleases.  Church tradition isn't clear about Judas performing any miracles.   You are basically arguing from silence.   But I can use the Bible handily to prove that Judas was never referred as a believer.

You forgot that Jesus carried on by saying "You do not have in mind the things of God but the things of MEN." Hardly something Jesus would say to Satan. So, yes, Jesus was addressing Peter.

If you cannot show any biblical example of God giving power to unbelievers to do miracles, then even if arguably God CAN give power to unbelievers, the fact remains that he DOES NOT. He was not going to start with Judas.

[ghtan]

10 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Once again, Jesus Christ Superstar was not written by a believer, but out of that movie, a few were saved or receive the miracle of salvation.

Mark 9:³⁸ Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

³⁹ But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. ⁴⁰ For he who is not against us is on our side. ⁴¹ For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

It is somewhat surprising, but a non-believer who can pray in the name of Jesus. If they are praying for a miracle for someone in Jesus name, God can answer the prayer and do the miracle. It happens. While God listens to a believer, it does not mean God doesn't know what non-believers say.  That falls under God being omniscient. 

Scripture never ever says whether Judas prayed for miracles or not, and whether God did the miracles or not, but again non-believers can pray in Jesus name. You are seeking to prove the Judas was a believer who lost his salvation, but you are making a lot of assumptions in order to do that.

   

How does Mk 9:38 show that God works through unbelievers? Not following the apostles simply mean he was not one of their band following Jesus. It does not mean he was an unbeliever. I would assume he was a believer. The apostles wanted to be exclusive. That was why they were arguing among themselves who was the greatest just before that. 

I am glad for your friend that he found Christ at a non-Christian concert. But God the Holy Spirit was working directly ON your friend to help him believe. The miracle did not come through the concert, much less the unbelieving composer. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by ghtan

[ghtan]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Judas had been with Jesus for quite some time to know that Jesus had the power to perceived the thoughts of others, and know what they are thinking and planing. He knew that he can not hide his plans  from Jesus. 

Before Judas we had people from his imidiate family getting anxious. and trying to persuade Jesus not to keep the Jews in suspense, and divided, and were telling him reveal your self, having their own ambitions to rule over Israel together with him.    ( their understanding in this matter it was not  the same, and it will never be till after the resurrection). 

Jesus made Judas Perceived at the last supper that he was in agreement with his plans of how to  revealed Jesus to the nation.

First of all, Jesus did not rebuke him and tell him not to do it, and in stand he took all doubts out of him, w 

Hi closest friend. I'm sorry but I really do not see how this fits into what we are discussing. But thanks for the reply.

[Guest shiloh357]

22 hours ago, ghtan said:

You forgot that Jesus carried on by saying "You do not have in mind the things of God but the things of MEN." Hardly something Jesus would say to Satan. So, yes, Jesus was addressing Peter.

If you cannot show any biblical example of God giving power to unbelievers to do miracles, then even if arguably God CAN give power to unbelievers, the fact remains that he DOES NOT. He was not going to start with Judas.

He addressed Satan first and then Peter.   Jesus was not calling Peter Satan. 

You are arguing from silence.  We have no record of Judas working any miracles.  Everything the Bible says about Judas makes it impossible for him to have been a believer.  His entire profile is that of an unbeliever.  

You have nothing other than an assumption to make a case for Judas being a believer.   I have a preponderance of evidence from the Bible that Judas was far from being a believer.   You have to make assumptions and make extremely tenuous claims to justify your position.   I don't have to work near as hard as you do.   Whether Judas performed  a miracle or not, Judas was not a believer.

[ghtan]

On 12/14/2015 at 5:55 AM, shiloh357 said:

On 12/14/2015 at 2:40 AM, Kan said:

 

 

Quote

To turn around and say that a nonbeliever is permanently doomed (I know you are not saying that, but some do) or that a person who once believed and who longer does, never believed in the first place, does not add up.

 

On 12/14/2015 at 5:55 AM, shiloh357 said:

Actually saying that a person who no longer believes never believed in the first place makes perfect sense and is the truth.   Salvation is a transformation of the heart, making it impossible for a true Christian to forsake the Lord.   In fact John makes that exact argument:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  (1Jn 2:18-19)

Sorry for chipping in but that verse applies to antichrists, not ordinary believers who fall away. If every person who drops out of church is an antichrist, then antichrists would be a dime a dozen.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Sorry for chipping in but that verse applies to antichrists, not ordinary believers who fall away. If every person who drops out of church is an antichrist, then antichrists would be a dime a dozen.

I understand that, but the principle applies.  It is possible to be inauthentic believer.  I am not saying that all unbelievers are anti-Christs, but the fact is that it is possible to have unbelievers of any stripe who, on the surface appear to be believers.  But that is a façade that is hard to keep up and eventually unbelievers will soon show their true colors.  Happens all of the time.

[ghtan]

18 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I understand that, but the principle applies.  It is possible to be inauthentic believer.  I am not saying that all unbelievers are anti-Christs, but the fact is that it is possible to have unbelievers of any stripe who, on the surface appear to be believers.  But that is a façade that is hard to keep up and eventually unbelievers will soon show their true colors.  Happens all of the time.

"Possible" means it would apply in SOME cases. But you are trying to apply it to ALL cases of believers falling away. That is to misuse the verse.

[gdemoss]

Judas was a theif who apparently thought Jesus was a fraud until after his arrest then he could not stand the truth of his betrayal of Christ and was driven to suicide for his actions.

Antichrists cannot stand to be in the presence of Christ and are eventually driven away.  They hate what Christ stands for.  Those who fall away give themselves over to the spirit of antichrist and follow devils for man is a servant and must choose whom he will serve.  He cannot choose not to serve something.  The choices are very limited.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, ghtan said:

"Possible" means it would apply in SOME cases. But you are trying to apply it to ALL cases of believers falling away. That is to misuse the verse.

A genuine believer will never fall away.   It is impossible for an authentic Christian to forsake the Lord.  I am not misusing the verse at all.  I am using the verse to illustrate a principle.  If someone is believed to be a Christian but is later found to embrace atheism, that person was never saved to start with.    Salvation is a transformation of the heart that precludes the possibility of a genuine believer becoming an atheist.

There are a lot of people in churches today who think  they are saved because they have always been in church, or because they were baptized as an infant, or for some other external reason, and they never actually made a decision for Jesus.    They have been upstanding members of their church, but they advocate for sinful ideals, they don't oppose gay marriage, or worse they actively endorse it.   Or they advocate for some other sinful behavior and their unregenerate condition is exposed. 

I know guys who were "Christians"  just so they could date a particular girl.  They join a church claiming to be a Christian but cannot keep up the façade, especially if the girl they were interested in or were dating, decides to find a different guy.   Suddenly their endurance wanes and their true colors show.

There are all kinds of scenarios out there where people were thought to be genuine followers of Jesus only to be exposed as the unregenerate sinner that they are.   

Just like John's reference to the those "anti-Christ"  folks,"  they are discovered for that they were truly were, and were never saved to start with.

[ghtan]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

A genuine believer will never fall away.   It is impossible for an authentic Christian to forsake the Lord.  I am not misusing the verse at all.  I am using the verse to illustrate a principle.  If someone is believed to be a Christian but is later found to embrace atheism, that person was never saved to start with.    Salvation is a transformation of the heart that precludes the possibility of a genuine believer becoming an atheist.

There are a lot of people in churches today who think  they are saved because they have always been in church, or because they were baptized as an infant, or for some other external reason, and they never actually made a decision for Jesus.    They have been upstanding members of their church, but they advocate for sinful ideals, they don't oppose gay marriage, or worse they actively endorse it.   Or they advocate for some other sinful behavior and their unregenerate condition is exposed. 

I know guys who were "Christians"  just so they could date a particular girl.  They join a church claiming to be a Christian but cannot keep up the façade, especially if the girl they were interested in or were dating, decides to find a different guy.   Suddenly their endurance wanes and their true colors show.

There are all kinds of scenarios out there where people were thought to be genuine followers of Jesus only to be exposed as the unregenerate sinner that they are.   

Just like John's reference to the those "anti-Christ"  folks,"  they are discovered for that they were truly were, and were never saved to start with.

What you have drawn is not a principle but an over-generalisation. It is like claiming Jesus’ statement that it would be better if Judas had not been born (Mk 14:21) means that all who fall away should also not have been born. That statement was intended only for Judas. Similarly, 1 John 2:19 is intended only for antichrists. Do you have any other verse to support your claim that those who fall away were never believers in the first place?