Vatican: Jews can be saved without Christ

[OldSchool2]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

.... Judaism is not a biblical religion; it is a false religion and Jews need to be converted.  It is not a matter of just receiving Jesus as Messiah but as Savior.  "Savior" and "Messiah"  are not interchangeable terms.   You can believe in Jesus as Messiah without necessarily accepting him as either God or the Savior.  

Jews must be converted to be saved.  Simply accepting Jesus as the Messiah is not enough.

Why does this sound like Galatianism?

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, OldSchool2 said:

Why does this sound like Galatianism?

The situation in Galatians was Judaizers telling Gentiles they need to believe in Jesus and convert to the Jewish religion in order to be saved.  That's why Paul harped on circumcision so much.   Conversion to the Jewish religion is the only valid reason a Gentile would get circumcised. 

So I don't see how this like the situation in Galatians.    A person can accept Jesus as the Messiah, but not accept him as Savior.    I know an Israeli man who concedes to Jesus as the Messiah, but does not accept that he is a sinner in need of a savior.   He is not a believer just because he will say that Jesus is the Messiah.   He has to trust in Jesus as His savior.    

[OldSchool2]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

The situation in Galatians was Judaizers telling Gentiles they need to believe in Jesus and convert to the Jewish religion in order to be saved.  That's why Paul harped on circumcision so much.   Conversion to the Jewish religion is the only valid reason a Gentile would get circumcised. 

So I don't see how this like the situation in Galatians.    A person can accept Jesus as the Messiah, but not accept him as Savior....

Messiah: One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.
Christ: The Messiah, as foretold by the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

synonymous: having the same meaning, i.e., interchangeable (capable of being put or used in the place of each other).

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, OldSchool2 said:

Messiah: One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.
Christ: The Messiah, as foretold by the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

synonymous: having the same meaning, i.e., interchangeable (capable of being put or used in the place of each other).

 

 

Messiah is a political savior, not a personal one.   Salvation in Judaism is corporate not personal.    Messiah is not redemptive office.   Jesus is both a personal savior and a corporate deliverer.   Jesus is Israel's Messiah but He is the Savior of the world.   From the standpoint of Jesus as a Personal Savior, Messiah and Savior are not synonymous.

[OldSchool2]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Messiah is a political savior, not a personal one.   Salvation in Judaism is corporate not personal.    Messiah is not redemptive office.   Jesus is both a personal savior and a corporate deliverer.   Jesus is Israel's Messiah but He is the Savior of the world.   From the standpoint of Jesus as a Personal Savior, Messiah and Savior are not synonymous.

Needless to say, my English dictionary disagrees with you.

And Jesus had no problems personally blessing Simon Peter (Matthew 16:17-18).

 

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said:

Needless to say, my English dictionary disagrees with you.

And Jesus had no problems personally blessing Simon Peter (Matthew 16:17-18).

 

I am not disagreeing with your English dictionary.  This is not about a lexical definition.   I am making a theological point about how the Bible presents Jesus as a political deliverer/Messiah at his second coming, but as a personal Savior from sin at his first coming.    Jesus was the Messiah, but was operating in the office of Savior.   Had Jesus operated as Messiah at that time, the church age would never have occurred.   The world would have skipped the church age and simply walked into the millennial kingdom.

Messiah is a corporate Savior.  But Jesus came the first time as a personal Savior.   You need to understand the difference.

 

And it should be pointed out that modern Judaism rejects Jesus as both Messiah and Savior, so again, plays no part in our salvation.

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not going to drag this out, because this is really beside the point.    The point is that Judaism is a false religion.  It rejects the deity and Saviorship of Jesus.

Judaism isn't the religion of the OT.   That's the point.   I think you're mistaken on a few points, but it's not worth bandying back and forth about them.   The issue here is that Judaism plays no part in Gentile salvation and that Jews need to come to faith Jesus, despite the ludicrous claims of the Vatican.

Judaism is based on the OT/Mosaic covenant, so is a biblical religion. Is it false? It does have some faults, judging from within the confines of the source of Judaism, which is the OT. Of course, I find that the various forms of Christianity also has some faults.  The biggest flaw of course is that Judaism rejects that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah, but the OT prophesies that failure.

Judaism only plays a part for Gentile salvation in that Judaism was the keeper of the OT, and faithfully retained the text thru the centuries. It is that God given text that they retained that establishes the fall of mankind, and the need for a savior. It chronicles the prophesies of the coming Messiah, what tribe, and where He would be born, as well as a prophesy of when. There is enough to identify that Jesus is that Messiah. Other then that, Judaism plays no part in Gentile salvation as that is a work of God alone. And we do agree that Jewish people need Jesus, and that the Vatican is teaching a heresy, which could send Jewish people to hell. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Judaism is based on the OT/Mosaic covenant, so is a biblical religion. Is it false? It does have some faults, judging from within the confines of the source of Judaism, which is the OT. Of course, I find that the various forms of Christianity also has some faults.  The biggest flaw of course is that Judaism rejects that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah, but the OT prophesies that failure.

Judaism only plays a part for Gentile salvation in that Judaism was the keeper of the OT, and faithfully retained the text thru the centuries. It is that God given text that they retained that establishes the fall of mankind, and the need for a savior. It chronicles the prophesies of the coming Messiah, what tribe, and where He would be born, as well as a prophesy of when. There is enough to identify that Jesus is that Messiah. Other then that, Judaism plays no part in Gentile salvation as that is a work of God alone. And we do agree that Jewish people need Jesus, and that the Vatican is teaching a heresy, which could send Jewish people to hell. 

No Judaism is NOT based on the OT/Mosaic Covenant.   Judaism is an adjustment to the loss of the Temple in 70 AD.   Judaism began in 72 AD.    Judaism is a post biblical religion that denies the Messiahship of Jesus and denies His deity.   A truly biblical religion would not do that.   IF they really followed Scripture they would receive Jesus as the Messiah.  

Modern Judaism not only rejects the Messiah, it persecutes Jewish believers who do accept Jesus as Messiah and personal Savior.  

[Qnts2]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No Judaism is NOT based on the OT/Mosaic Covenant.   Judaism is an adjustment to the loss of the Temple in 70 AD.   Judaism began in 72 AD.    Judaism is a post biblical religion that denies the Messiahship of Jesus and denies His deity.   A truly biblical religion would not do that.   IF they really followed Scripture they would receive Jesus as the Messiah.  

Modern Judaism not only rejects the Messiah, it persecutes Jewish believers who do accept Jesus as Messiah and personal Savior.  

So, what you are saying is the with the NT, the Mosaic law became false. I do not believe that. And again, the scripture prophesies of a time when the Jewish people would reject the Messiah. If they, as a nation, had accepted the Messiah, then the OT would be false as it says the Gentiles would come to the Lord, and make the Jewish people jealous.

In the NT, it says that people who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, will hate and persecute those who do. Jewish believers are not unique in being persecuted. I desire the Jewish people to be saved, but sharing the gospel with the Jewish people, as a Jewish person, is similar to living the book of Acts. 

Before I knew that Jesus was the Messiah, I considered Jewish people who accepted Jesus as horrible traitors. I was no different then the Jewish people who you say persecute Jewish believers. I have a lot of understanding, and can offer forgiveness to Jewish people who are just like I was.

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

So, what you are saying is the with the NT, the Mosaic law became false. I do not believe that. And again, the scripture prophesies of a time when the Jewish people would reject the Messiah. If they, as a nation, had accepted the Messiah, then the OT would be false as it says the Gentiles would come to the Lord, and make the Jewish people jealous.

In the NT, it says that people who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, will hate and persecute those who do. Jewish believers are not unique in being persecuted. I desire the Jewish people to be saved, but sharing the gospel with the Jewish people, as a Jewish person, is similar to living the book of Acts. 

No I am not saying that the Mosaic law became false.  But Modern Judaism doesn't follow the Mosaic law.   Modern Judaism employs traditions like the Shabbes goy.  Where in the Torah are Jews instructed to employ Gentiles to turn lights on and off and pre tear toilet paper and change baby diapers and wash dishes on the Sabbath?

Modern Judaism doesn't follow over 1/3 of the Torah.  Modern Judaism is completely separated from any redemptive theology of the sacrifices because they have no way of keeping the commandments relative to the sacrificial system.

Modern Judaism doesn't keep the Festival of Fruits.

Modern Judaism, contradicts the OT, Mosaic law that points them to the Messiah.   Their rejection of the Messiah is in complete disobedience the very law they claim to follow.    Modern Judaism follows the Rabbis, and the Bible means what the Rabbis SAY it means.  There are even rabbinical parables that teach that even God is bound by rabbinic rulings and edicts.

Torah Talmud Judaism views the Talmud as Torah and studies the Talmud as Torah.

What Does The Talmud Teach About The Importance Of Its Writings Compared To The Torah?

Raba made the following exposition: What is the purport of the Scriptural text: And, furthermore my son, be admonished: Of making many books etc.? My son, be more careful in [the observance of] the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah, for in the laws of the Torah there are positive and negative precepts; but, as to the laws of the Scribes, whoever transgresses any of the enactments of the Scribes incurs the penalty of death. In case you should object: If they are of real value why were they not recorded [in the Torah]? Scripture stated: ‘Of making many books there is no end’.(2)  Eiruvin 21b (The Judaic Classics Library - The Soncino Talmud). http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/does_the_talmud_take_precedence.html

Modern Judaism began in 72 AD under Yochanan Ben Zakkai at the council of Yavneh.  You should know that.   There may be residue of ancient Jewish culture present in Modern Judaism, but most of modern Judaism has evolved over two millennia and much has been added to over that time period.