The Time of Testing

[Guest]

5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Sounds too much like the wof movement.  That's already  and frequently been discredited on this site.

If your talking to me, you couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps you should look up the "Word of Faith" doctrine. I personally am a Bible believing, literal & chronological interpreting, Evangelical, pre-Trib Rapture Christian.

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

 ..."For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness (2 Thes. 2:7-12)."

Here Paul makes the case that the Church has to be gone before the anti-Christ is officially revealed ...

1 Thes. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our [the Church's] gathering together to Him... 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

Here Paul makes the case that the Church has to be present when the Son of Perdition comes. Does he then change his mind in verses 7-12? No, he says there that the lawless one will be destroyed (or more literally, will be done away with) at the time of our Lord's coming.

[SINNERSAVED]

8 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

As I have said, there are many threads on this forum debating the Rapture and its timing. Do your own work and search them out.

I am not about the other forums or subjects on this rapture, I am just asking you a simple  question, and you are not able to answer me,

what scriptures are backing up the pre trib rapture, if you are so dead set on it,? and why are you everywhere but answering, my question,

if you are not able to , it will be understandable,  this is not about pride or who knows more then anyone, this is our lives and others are affected when they read this, people need the truth , and if you feel you have the truth ,and I am wrong, just show me in scripture, ?

this is how we help each other and work these things out,

I was  a believer like you for thirty plus years about this same subject , and then I read my bible, and learned the real truth , so I know where you are coming from, and I have really gone deep on this topic, for I wanted the right answers , and my eyes were open.

[angels4u]

10 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I am not about the other forums or subjects on this rapture, I am just asking you a simple  question, and you are not able to answer me,

what scriptures are backing up the pre trib rapture, if you are so dead set on it,? and why are you everywhere but answering, my question,

if you are not able to , it will be understandable,  this is not about pride or who knows more then anyone, this is our lives and others are affected when they read this, people need the truth , and if you feel you have the truth ,and I am wrong, just show me in scripture, ?

this is how we help each other and work these things out,

I was  a believer like you for thirty plus years about this same subject , and then I read my bible, and learned the real truth , so I know where you are coming from, and I have really gone deep on this topic, for I wanted the right answers , and my eyes were open.

Are you looking for :

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Rev3:10

[SINNERSAVED]

20 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Are you looking for :

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Rev3:10

Hello angels4u,

no ,that is the scripture that has been used to try to prove ,about the pre trib rapture, and this , has no bearing on it,

for many scripture verses that  (are)  about the gathering ,the taking away , the return of Jesus, and the rapture, cannot be placed before the tribulation, the context of this event, points to after,, and many will disagree,

I am not teaching anything here, I am just standing my ground on this ,for this is what made me do the first step of pulling away from the church, so this is very important !!,

and if by chance someone can prove with out a shadow of a doubt, it is vital , that we are not looking for this event, for if we have to go through tribulation,

we must be prepared ,and not think we get a out of the tribulation free pass, for just by this alone !,

people could walk away from there faith, if the time came and they were not ready , and cursed God, for entering in to the tribulation,

so this is a matter of love for one another, ....many have different opinions and may not agree , but the main factor reguardless ,is to be ready for the worst, and so we can endure until the end, no matter what happens, and not think ,..nothing will happen to us,

[WilliamL]

Rev. 3:10 “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you ek/out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

First point: this promise is only given to the Philadelphia Church; not to the Laodicean Church. It therefore may be conditional, applying to some but not others.

Second point: the promise is only to be "kept" (literally, guarded/watched over/preserved) out of the trial. That does not by definition mean being removed from the earth. For example, we find in Rev. 12 that the Woman is

12:14 ...given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, apo/away from the presence of the serpent. ... 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

So we see that the woman is being kept/guarded/preserved while still on earth. This woman has a crown of 12 stars upon her head, which represent heavenly = apostolic authority, not Israelite = earthly authority. Her offspring

12:17 ...have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So this cannot be unbelieving Israel: these are believers in Jesus.

In sum, therefore, there is scriptural witness that the Church is well able to be protected upon earth during the depredations of Satan without being taken into heaven.

 

[angels4u]

1 minute ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Hello angels4u,

no ,that is the scripture that has been used to try to prove ,about the pre trib rapture, and this , has no bearing on it,

for many scripture verses that  (are)  about the gathering ,the taking away , the return of Jesus, and the rapture, cannot be placed before the tribulation, the context of this event, points to after,, and many will disagree,

I am not teaching anything here, I am just standing my ground on this ,for this is what made me do the first step of pulling away from the church, so this is very important !!,

and if by chance someone can prove with out a shadow of a doubt, it is vital , that we are not looking for this event, for if we have to go through tribulation,

we must be prepared ,and not think we get a out of the tribulation free pass, for just by this alone !,

people could walk away from there faith, if the time came and they were not ready , and cursed God, for entering in to the tribulation,

so this is a matter of love for one another, ....many have different opinions and may not agree , but the main factor reguardless ,is to be ready for the worst, and so we can endure until he end, no matter what happens, and not think ,..nothing will happen to us,

 

For me I grew up believing in the pre rapture ,but now I'm sort of  more  in believing mid trib?

It's not really important to me and its not an issue of Salvation so if we're here in the first part of the  tribulation ,God will carry us through until the end and if He spares us from the Tribulation--I'm very good with that!

Would He wants us to go through the Tribulation? That's good too because I belong to Him and nobody can snatch me away from Jesus,no matter what happens it will be a win-win situation

So at all times,I 'm ready to meet the Lord..

Amen come Lords Jesus..please come soon...

 

[SINNERSAVED]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 3:10 “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you ek/out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

First point: this promise is only given to the Philadelphia Church; not to the Laodicean Church. It therefore may be conditional, applying to some but not others.

Second point: the promise is only to be "kept" (literally, guarded/watched over/preserved) out of the trial. That does not by definition mean being removed from the earth. For example, we find in Rev. 12 that the Woman is

12:14 ...given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, apo/away from the presence of the serpent. ... 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

So we see that the woman is being kept/guarded/preserved while still on earth. This woman has a crown of 12 stars upon her head, which represent heavenly = apostolic authority, not Israelite = earthly authority. Her offspring

12:17 ...have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So this cannot be unbelieving Israel: these are believers in Jesus.

In sum, therefore, there is scriptural witness that the Church is well able to be protected upon earth during the depredations of Satan without being taken into heaven.

 

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I just had a thought, and this is just asking ? if the dragon represents satan, ? and he opened his mouth and spewed out a flood and the earth opened up to help the women which we know represents Gods people,

then as in Daniel said the beast comes from the sea, meaning many people  ? not a real sea.   then could the flood that comes out of the mouth of the dragon, ,could it mean something other then a real flood, could this flood be symbolic to armies, or soldiers coming, something like that, I don't really see  a actual flood, I believe this could be symbolic, but this is just  a thought, any one got a idea on this, is it possible?

[Omegaman 3.0]

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Scripture only interprets Scripture that it is related to.  If the Prime Scripture says we are not on earth during this time of testing which is what Rev 3:10 implies.  No other Scriptures can say different.  They must have a different meaning and purpose.

Funny how different understandings can be.

On Rev. 3:10

Now let me make it clear with someone who might think that I am trying to deceive you, that I am not saying that Revelation 3:10 cannot be translated to say what many in this thread are saying that it means, namely that it means believers will be removed from the hour of testing to come.

At the same time I think if we want to be intellectually honest, we probably should note some things in the Greek that are not obvious in every English translation. Notice for example that the verb in this passage, tereo, is translated by many versions as "keep" and then coupled with the preposition ek, it is rendered as "keep from". The definition of the verb tereo, from Strong's dictionary, says of it:

tereo - to keep

tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Do you see that this verb can (or does) mean to guard or to keep intact or to preserve etc.? It is not said there that removal is in view, preservation is.

Now regarding the preposition ek:

Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 17th impression, pg. 149 says of ek:

In Matthew 17:9 it is used of descending from a mountain not out of; we are not to suppose that they had been in a cave; (Dr. a T Robertson grammar of the Greek New Testament). In first Thessalonians 1:10 the question of whether ek here means out of the midst of or away from is to be determined by some statement of Scripture where the subject is specifically mentioned. This is provided in 5:9, the context of which makes clear that believers are to be delivered from, not out of, the divine wrath to be executed on the nations at the end of the present age.

So according to vines, we can see that this preposition is not necessarily having to mean out of, again removal is not necessarily in view. In fact to that point, vines states emphatically that in a similar context in first Thessalonians that ek is used to refer to a deliverance from divine wrath but not out of it.

The implication here is that it is possible that Revelation 3:10 is implying that believers will be preserved, yet not necesarrily removed in this hour of testing.

Additionally Revelation 3:10 does not specify that this testing is the tribulation.

I would also like to point out that tribulation is something that happens, it is trouble, it is a pressure on those who endure it. Now what do I mean by this? What I mean to say is that tribulation is not a period of time it is something that happens to people with in a period of time.

Now someone might say: "but Omegaman, it does say the hour of testing", so that does imply a period of time". That seems fair enough. However, as I said the tribulation is not a time. It is something that happens within a space of time, like all things that happen do. All I see there is that this testing is limited in time it is not indefinite.

This of course corresponds perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Of course, if the "elect" means the Jews of Jesus day, most of them were deceived, so we know it is possible. There are numerous warnings about not being deceived in the end times, if the elect refers to an informed and watchful church, then avoiding deception is possible.

As you can see verse 22 says those days will be cut short and for the sake of the elect. Now for some reason, my pre-tribulation brethren (and sisteren), choose to think that the word "elect" in this context, means Jews, in spite of the fact that everywhere else in the New Testament where the word elect is used where it is not speaking about Jews specifically as the chosen of God in the Old Testament, that word is used of those who are the chosen, the called out ones, the church.

Let's grant though, for a moment, the idea that Matthew 24 is addressed to the Jews and not intended for the church. It seems like Messiah was wasting his breath then, because here He is speaking to his apostles not a larger Jewish audience, and this instruction will be recorded in the New Testament something that the church would receive, but other Jews would not. Most Jews in our day, do not read the New Testament. I suspect that by the time the tribulation comes around even fewer Jews will be reading the New Testament. During the tribulation that might be all but impossible to even have or access a New Testament. After all this is the time frame in which the abomination of desolation will appear, and attempt to destroy the things of God.

Jesus gave warning in Matthew 24 that of all things that were to come this was the main sign to watch for. Now clearly, the apostles are not here today and so they will not be here to see this abomination of desolation. I have to assume that Jesus intended that those who really need to be watching for the abomination of desolation will be those who are present to see it, and of course, who are also informed enough to be watching.

Of course the apostles did not know that they would not be here to see it, but we know that now. Also the apostle Paul seems to have been warning the church of the same thing when he said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

You can see that in that context, he is referring to the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, would that not be the so-called Rapture? Also a few verses later Paul says:

"Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;"

So here in the same context that Paul was talking about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him (rapture), He speaks of the sign to be watched for. this man of sin who claims to be God himself. And Paul also talks about how this person is going to be destroyed when Jesus appears at His coming.

Maybe it is just a strange coincidence, but Matthew 24 says the same things. It talks about a terrible time, it talks about a terrible person, and it talks about Jesus returning visibly to put an end to this abomination, this man of sin, this antichrist.

Have you noticed that this scenario does not make a bunch of assumptions about two future comings of Jesus, about a rapture before the tribulation, etc.?

This is why I am always comfortable with the post-tribulation rapture position, because it does not have to make any assumptions, does not have to insert any ideas that are not contained in the text. So back to Revelation 3:10

In the text, in the Greek text, the language does not say necessarily anything about anyone being removed from anything. It does not explicitly name what people refer to as the tribulation, at least certainly not as some timeframe. It could well be implying that believers present will be protected from God's wrath, but God's wrath is never equated to the seven-year period that pre-tribbers expect to be delivered from. I should probably make one more observation before I got my post short here:

In Revelation 3:10, that promise of preservation is made specifically to the church of Philadelphia. Why should we presume that the church in Philadelphia, represents the believers of the last days just before the tribulation? Notice that there is a reason given why that protection will be provided to that church:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance". 

Does that mean anything? I actually think that it does. Perseverance is easily accomplished when you do not have to go through any suffering. If Jesus were to come tomorrow and rapture me, I don't deserve any special consideration. In other periods of time, the church has had to endure more. In other places on the planet, the church is in during more right now, than I ever had to endure. It is extremely easy to be a Christian and to persevere in the United States in the 21st century so far. If the rapture happens tomorrow I do not fit the category that explains why Jesus is providing protection.

Returning for a moment to Matthew 24, there is this:

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Of course that also fits perfectly well with Rev 12, where we see the Jews who are protected in the wilderness during the tribulation, then it says in verse 12, that there is another wrath to contend with, the wrath of the devil. So, he cannot get to the jews, who does he go after instead?

Verse17 says he went off to make war with the rest, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus. 

Really? Christians during the Tribulation? Who knew?

Of course, if that wasn't clear enough, Revelation repeats itself on this point, in Chapter 20:

 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What an amazing book, and the things it reveals.

Consider that in chapter 20, we see the souls of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. Christians? They did not worship the beast or take his mark. That places it in the tribulation. Then, they come to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years. If that does not speak to Christians in the tribulation, dieing, and coming to life in a premillenial scenario, I don't know what else could be said

Can you see how what is described in all of these verses has people in during tribulation, people being killed, and hated for Jesus name. Are Jews killed for Jesus name? Or is that a description of the church during a time of tribulation? A time of deception, false prophets, lawlessness, love the failing . . . That is a time of tribulation. But what does verse 13 of Matt 24 say?:

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Isn't it odd how that better describes those who Jesus protects. These are ones who persevere. A church in the tribulation has an opportunity to persevere just as Jesus said of those in Revelation chapter 3.

That also fits well with what Paul said to the Thessalonians:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed the church is not destined for the wrath of God, as unbelievers are, we are destined for salvation. In the context of this verse, Paul is describing two groups of people in the last days when the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

To one group, destruction will come on them suddenly, but Paul says of the other group:

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. 

All of these verse fit together into a seamless narative, like a hand fits into a glove.

Consider not adding ideas to the texts, that are not there, and just accept the word at face value.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

5 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 

For me I grew up believing in the pre rapture ,but now I'm sort of  more  in believing mid trib?

It's not really important to me and its not an issue of Salvation so if we're here in the first part of the  tribulation ,God will carry us through until the end and if He spares us from the Tribulation--I'm very good with that!

Would He wants us to go through the Tribulation? That's good too because I belong to Him and nobody can snatch me away from Jesus,no matter what happens it will be a win-win situation

So at all times,I 'm ready to meet the Lord..

Amen come Lords Jesus..please come soon...

 

we know for a fact by scripture, that when the dragon is after Gods people in the end times, he gives them wings and sends them to safety, this is scriptural and truth,

Now, as far as the rapture, I would love to go right now and get out of here before everything hits the fan, I would love that, count me in , before , mid trib, what ever it takes , I want out,

But, we are told in matthew 24 that we will have tribulation  but be of good cheer .He has over come the world , . also . what we suffer here in this world ,is not to be compared to what is in store in the glory  of the lord, for those that endure until the end and are doers of the word,

tribulation we are never promised  a out, in fact, we are told we will have tribulation, Jesus also said He did not come to bring Peace,

but a sword, and to place daughter against mother son against father, for our own family will turn on us, I don't know how to say this in a nice way or  with love, but do you know what He is stating on this verse alone ?

He is telling us to put on the armor . for our own family will turn on us, we will be killed all the day long for following Jesus , and that , this is not only a testing of our lives, but a verdict against the evil that is killing us, by our actions ,words and life, we are doing two things,

and many will not want to hear this, but

ONE, you are here to testify of the God we serve to the death , if that is what it takes, to all around us , and a public appearance to our enemies, and people around us,

and TWO.. it is by what is going on to us as persecution and being killed by the ,people that are doing it , are being judged by there actions against us,

for we reap what we sow, and we have been bought with a price, and we are not of our own , but we are Gods , He paid to ransom us

and we are His , and will be redeemed when He returns. but we must run the race until the end , its not finished until the end,