The Time of Testing

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I just had a thought, and this is just asking ? if the dragon represents satan, ? and he opened his mouth and spewed out a flood and the earth opened up to help the women which we know represents Gods people,

then as in Daniel said the beast comes from the sea, meaning many people  ? not a real sea.   then could the flood that comes out of the mouth of the dragon, could it mean something other then a real flood, could this flood be symbolic to armies, or soldiers coming, something like that, I don't really see  a actual flood, I believe this could be symbolic, but this is just  a thought, any one got a idea on this, is it possible?

12 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

we know for a fact by scripture, that when the dragon is after Gods people in the end times, he gives them wings and sends them to safety, this is scriptural and truth,

Great insights. Here are your answers from the Scriptures. (Same song, second verse.)

Rev. 12:5 And the woman fled into the wilderness...

Ex. 14:5 Now it was told the king of Egypt that the people [of God] had fled [into the wilderness], and the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people; and they said, “Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?” 6 So he made ready his chariot and took his people with him. 7 Also, he took six hundred choice chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt with captains over every one of them.

Jasher 81:23 And all the Egyptians went forth with Pharaoh to pursue the children of Israel, and the camp of the Egypt was an exceeding large and heavy camp, about ten hundred thousand [= one million] men.

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened up its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Ex. 15:9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; My desire shall be satisfied on them. I will draw my sword, My hand shall destroy them.’ ... 12 You stretched out Your right hand; The earth swallowed them.

This metaphor of a vast army being portrayed as a flood is found in quite a number of OT prophecies and historical accounts, such as Dan. 9:26 and 11:22, Is. 59:19, Jer. 46:7-8, etc.

Regarding the eagles' wings:

Rev. 12:14 And the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where where is nourished ...away from the face of the the serpent.

Ex. 18:4 "You have seen what I [the LORD] did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself."

 

[Montana Marv]

14 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Funny how different understandings can be.

On Rev. 3:10

Now let me make it clear with someone who might think that I am trying to deceive you, that I am not saying that Revelation 3:10 cannot be translated to say what many in this thread are saying that it means, namely that it means believers will be removed from the hour of testing to come.

At the same time I think if we want to be intellectually honest, we probably should note some things in the Greek that are not obvious in every English translation. Notice for example that the verb in this passage, tereo, is translated by many versions as "keep" and then coupled with the preposition ek, it is rendered as "keep from". The definition of the verb tereo, from Strong's dictionary, says of it:

tereo - to keep

tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Do you see that this verb can (or does) mean to guard or to keep intact or to preserve etc.? It is not said there that removal is in view, preservation is.

Now regarding the preposition ek:

Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 17th impression, pg. 149 says of ek:

In Matthew 17:9 it is used of descending from a mountain not out of; we are not to suppose that they had been in a cave; (Dr. a T Robertson grammar of the Greek New Testament). In first Thessalonians 1:10 the question of whether ek here means out of the midst of or away from is to be determined by some statement of Scripture where the subject is specifically mentioned. This is provided in 5:9, the context of which makes clear that believers are to be delivered from, not out of, the divine wrath to be executed on the nations at the end of the present age.

So according to vines, we can see that this preposition is not necessarily having to mean out of, again removal is not necessarily in view. In fact to that point, vines states emphatically that in a similar context in first Thessalonians that ek is used to refer to a deliverance from divine wrath but not out of it.

The implication here is that it is possible that Revelation 3:10 is implying that believers will be preserved, yet not necesarrily removed in this hour of testing.

Additionally Revelation 3:10 does not specify that this testing is the tribulation.

I would also like to point out that tribulation is something that happens, it is trouble, it is a pressure on those who endure it. Now what do I mean by this? What I mean to say is that tribulation is not a period of time it is something that happens to people with in a period of time.

Now someone might say: "but Omegaman, it does say the hour of testing", so that does imply a period of time". That seems fair enough. However, as I said the tribulation is not a time. It is something that happens within a space of time, like all things that happen do. All I see there is that this testing is limited in time it is not indefinite.

This of course corresponds perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Of course, if the "elect" means the Jews of Jesus day, most of them were deceived, so we know it is possible. There are numerous warnings about not being deceived in the end times, if the elect refers to an informed and watchful church, then avoiding deception is possible.

As you can see verse 22 says those days will be cut short and for the sake of the elect. Now for some reason, my pre-tribulation brethren (and sisteren), choose to think that the word "elect" in this context, means Jews, in spite of the fact that everywhere else in the New Testament where the word elect is used where it is not speaking about Jews specifically as the chosen of God in the Old Testament, that word is used of those who are the chosen, the called out ones, the church.

Let's grant though, for a moment, the idea that Matthew 24 is addressed to the Jews and not intended for the church. It seems like Messiah was wasting his breath then, because here He is speaking to his apostles not a larger Jewish audience, and this instruction will be recorded in the New Testament something that the church would receive, but other Jews would not. Most Jews in our day, do not read the New Testament. I suspect that by the time the tribulation comes around even fewer Jews will be reading the New Testament. During the tribulation that might be all but impossible to even have or access a New Testament. After all this is the time frame in which the abomination of desolation will appear, and attempt to destroy the things of God.

Jesus gave warning in Matthew 24 that of all things that were to come this was the main sign to watch for. Now clearly, the apostles are not here today and so they will not be here to see this abomination of desolation. I have to assume that Jesus intended that those who really need to be watching for the abomination of desolation will be those who are present to see it, and of course, who are also informed enough to be watching.

Of course the apostles did not know that they would not be here to see it, but we know that now. Also the apostle Paul seems to have been warning the church of the same thing when he said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

You can see that in that context, he is referring to the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, would that not be the so-called Rapture? Also a few verses later Paul says:

"Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;"

So here in the same context that Paul was talking about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him (rapture), He speaks of the sign to be watched for. this man of sin who claims to be God himself. And Paul also talks about how this person is going to be destroyed when Jesus appears at His coming.

Maybe it is just a strange coincidence, but Matthew 24 says the same things. It talks about a terrible time, it talks about a terrible person, and it talks about Jesus returning visibly to put an end to this abomination, this man of sin, this antichrist.

Have you noticed that this scenario does not make a bunch of assumptions about two future comings of Jesus, about a rapture before the tribulation, etc.?

This is why I am always comfortable with the post-tribulation rapture position, because it does not have to make any assumptions, does not have to insert any ideas that are not contained in the text. So back to Revelation 3:10

In the text, in the Greek text, the language does not say necessarily anything about anyone being removed from anything. It does not explicitly name what people refer to as the tribulation, at least certainly not as some timeframe. It could well be implying that believers present will be protected from God's wrath, but God's wrath is never equated to the seven-year period that pre-tribbers expect to be delivered from. I should probably make one more observation before I got my post short here:

In Revelation 3:10, that promise of preservation is made specifically to the church of Philadelphia. Why should we presume that the church in Philadelphia, represents the believers of the last days just before the tribulation? Notice that there is a reason given why that protection will be provided to that church:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance". 

Does that mean anything? I actually think that it does. Perseverance is easily accomplished when you do not have to go through any suffering. If Jesus were to come tomorrow and rapture me, I don't deserve any special consideration. In other periods of time, the church has had to endure more. In other places on the planet, the church is in during more right now, than I ever had to endure. It is extremely easy to be a Christian and to persevere in the United States in the 21st century so far. If the rapture happens tomorrow I do not fit the category that explains why Jesus is providing protection.

Returning for a moment to Matthew 24, there is this:

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Of course that also fits perfectly well with Rev 12, where we see the Jews who are protected in the wilderness during the tribulation, then it says in verse 12, that there is another wrath to contend with, the wrath of the devil. So, he cannot get to the jews, who does he go after instead?

Verse17 says he went off to make war with the rest, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus. 

Really? Christians during the Tribulation? Who knew?

Of course, if that wasn't clear enough, Revelation repeats itself on this point, in Chapter 20:

 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What an amazing book, and the things it reveals.

Consider that in chapter 20, we see the souls of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. Christians? They did not worship the beast or take his mark. That places it in the tribulation. Then, they come to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years. If that does not speak to Christians in the tribulation, dieing, and coming to life in a premillenial scenario, I don't know what else could be said

Can you see how what is described in all of these verses has people in during tribulation, people being killed, and hated for Jesus name. Are Jews killed for Jesus name? Or is that a description of the church during a time of tribulation? A time of deception, false prophets, lawlessness, love the failing . . . That is a time of tribulation. But what does verse 13 of Matt 24 say?:

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Isn't it odd how that better describes those who Jesus protects. These are ones who persevere. A church in the tribulation has an opportunity to persevere just as Jesus said of those in Revelation chapter 3.

That also fits well with what Paul said to the Thessalonians:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed the church is not destined for the wrath of God, as unbelievers are, we are destined for salvation. In the context of this verse, Paul is describing two groups of people in the last days when the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

To one group, destruction will come on them suddenly, but Paul says of the other group:

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. 

All of these verse fit together into a seamless narative, like a hand fits into a glove.

Consider not adding ideas to the texts, that are not there, and just accept the word at face value.

 

Omegaman

You have made a lot of suppositions here.

First of all the trial is for ALL who live on the earth.  All will go through it.  Yet Rev 3:10 implies that we are being kept from this hour of trial. (We will not go through it)   Which part of ALL do you not understand.  What trial are we to miss?  Rev 6 and on.

Here is a specific quote of yours: The implication here is that it is possible that Revelation 3:10 is implying that believers will be preserved, yet not necesarrily removed in this hour of testing.

Do you see what you have done here.  You have brought in the "possibility" that the Scripture might mean something other than what it really says/implies.  You have brought in other similar verses with (ek) and (terrein/tereo) to make claim that this verse means something different (it could mean this) or (it might also mean that). 

Keeping the Church "through" (dia) a preposition is not used here.

So I stand by Rev 3:10 meaning exactly what it says.  We are going to be kept from that hour of trial which is going to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Now back to the topic.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Guest]

SINNERSAVED, you have challenged me to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-Trib rapture. So, here is me exhaustive study. It is long, as anyone would imagine it would be to be comprehensive. I sincerely doubt that you will bother to read it all the way through or that it will change your mind as those who don’t want to believe the literal/contextual interpretation of the Scriptures tend to have closed their minds. But those who choose to read it all and check the Scriptures to confirm what I have said, will at least have a much clearer picture of what the Holy Spirit is saying in His Book and can make a more informed decision on where their Hope lies.

As you may know I believe Paul was the first person on Earth to present a clear pre-Trib teaching, about 20 years after the cross. Before that time it was unknown because Jesus didn’t teach it to His other disciples during their time together. And since the Olivet Discourse is directed at Israel, there’s no mention of it there either, even though the end times is in view. Israel will not participate in the rapture. Now I’ll be the first to admit that doing this requires that you already have a working knowledge of the pre-Trib position, because without it you wouldn’t recognize some of these references as being pertinent to the subject. But ever since Paul revealed the rapture, scholars have been seeing hints of it here and there, even in the Old Testament.

Before we begin, in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 Paul explained why God’s plans for the Church had been kept secret until after the crucifixion. He said that if the rulers of this age (Satan & Co.) had understood all that God intended for us they would not have crucified the Lord. Not that they could have stopped it, of course. But had they known God was going to use the murder of His Son to save us all, they wouldn’t have gone ahead with it, and in fact would have tried to prevent it. It wasn’t until He was on the cross that they discovered the Lord’s death was going to become payment in full for all our sins, so instead of it being cause for a great celebration it totally disarmed them and made them into a public spectacle (Colossians 2:13-15). Then, 20 years later, they learned about the rapture. These were both things that God had planned from the beginning, but a good general keeps his strategy a secret in order to take his enemy by surprise, so God didn’t let Satan (or anyone else) know about these things until it was too late for him to react. Even now, Satan doesn’t know when the rapture is coming. All he knows is what we know, that each new believer could be the last one, the one that takes us all out of here and beyond his reach forever.

I’m convinced that God’s plan requires the Church to disappear before Daniel’s 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24) At the end of 69 weeks (483 years) Jesus was crucified, the clock suddenly stopped, and Israel disappeared along with its Temple and Old Covenant worship. Daniel’s prophecy was left incomplete and from that time on, God’s focus was on the church.

The reappearance of Israel in 1948, the promised rebuilding of a Temple, and the resumption of Levitical sacrifice during the 70th week make it clear that the Church didn’t end the dispensation of Law but only interrupted it seven years short of its intended duration. We would all agree that if the introduction of a dam into a stream of water interrupts its flow, then it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that removal of the dam will be necessary for the flow to resume. Therefore if the introduction of the Church after the 69th week of Daniels prophecy caused the interruption in its fulfillment, it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that the Church will have to be removed before the final seven years of the dispensation of Law can run their course and Daniel’s prophecy can be fulfilled.

Of course there are other sound reasons why the church has to disappear before the End Times begin in earnest. Not having a destiny on Earth, our presence here would serve no purpose during the time of Earth’s liberation from bondage (Romans 8:19-21). Not being subject to judgment the Church has no unfinished business with God that could be concluded during the End Times. Unlike Israel we don’t need to be made righteous because we’re already as righteous as God is (2 Cor. 5:21).

Jeremiah 30:11 says the End time judgments will serve a twofold purpose, to completely destroy all the nations among which Israel has been scattered and to discipline Israel. Since God does not consider the Church to be part of either Israel or the nations, our presence on Earth during that time would be unnecessary. But the most important reason, as we’ll see, is that God said we won’t be here. Those who teach the Church’s presence on Earth during any part of Daniel’s 70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.

With that introduction, let’s look at some of the clearest hints God placed in the Scriptures to show He has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Naturally, we’ll begin in the Old Testament. “Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away.” (Genesis 5:24) In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46) But, if you give the Lord’s statement its widest possible application, you can see that as the time of the Great Flood drew near there were 3 kinds of people on Earth. There were the unbelievers who perished in the flood, Noah and his family who were preserved through it, and Enoch, who was taken by the Lord well before it. Just so, as the End of the Age draws near there will still be three kinds of people on Earth. They are the unbelievers of our time who will perish in the End Times judgments, modern Israel who will be preserved through them, and the Church who will be taken by God well before they begin.

There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, “Go and make disciples (students) of all men.” (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. It’s the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Another example is Lot. “But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (Genesis 19:23) Abraham had struck a bargain with the Lord that if even 10 righteous people could be found in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the cities. The fact that the cities were destroyed indicates 10 righteous people could not be found there. But there was one, and though He wasn’t bound to do it, the Lord instructed the angels to get Lot out of town before commencing their judgment. As you see above, Genesis 19:22 tells us the angels could not execute the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was safely away.  Peter referred to Lot’s rescue from Sodom as evidence that the Lord does not judge the righteous with the wicked (2 Peter 2:7-9).  Lot therefore becomes a model of the Church, who with a righteousness imputed by faith, has to be removed from the time and place of judgment before it begins.

Daniel 3 contains one of the most popular children’s stories of the Old Testament. Many don’t realize that it’s also one of the clearest models of the End Times anywhere in the Bible. King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Daniel’s three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon. But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you don’t know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you don’t know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story it’s as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while a believing remnant of Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.

Let’s see what Isaiah has to say about it. “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.” (Isaiah 26:19-21) Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lord’s intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It can’t be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it can’t be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of God’s wrath, not before it. (Daniel 12:1-2) Someday soon a group of people will suddenly rise from the dead. Another group, still living, will be whisked away to rooms prepared for them to be hidden from the time of God’s wrath. Then the Lord will punish the people of the Earth for their sins. The fact that the groups being resurrected and hidden are not objects of his wrath is indicated by the switch from second person (resurrected and hidden) to third person (punished).

Notice how similar the wording is to 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture: But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (“The dead in Christ will rise first”); “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (“After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air”). It’s appropriate to insert John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about. “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His father’s house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”) I’m convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.“ (1 Thes. 4:15). I say this because with the exception of 1 Thes 4:16-17 there is no passage in all the Bible that so clearly describes the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. This is not the sum of Old Testament verses that point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But it’s a good sample of the clearest ones, to help you see that God always intended to take us to be with him before He unleashes the End Times judgments upon the unbelieving Earth.

Because Paul was the first to reveal the mystery of the Rapture, we won’t expect to find a clear explanation in the Gospels, but since we already know about it, we’ll be able to spot a couple of hints here and there. In His definitive teaching on the End Times, the Lord warned Israel they would be hated and persecuted by all nations because of Him (Matt. 24:9). He said many would fall away from the faith, and would betray and hate each other (Matt. 24:10). He said their Temple would be desecrated by another Abomination of Desolation, and when that happened those in Judea (the New Testament name for Israel) would have to flee into the mountains immediately (Matt. 24:15). He told them to pray that their flight wouldn’t take place in the winter (winters can be harsh in the Judean wilderness) or on the Sabbath (fleeing would violate Sabbath travel restrictions) because the Great Tribulation would be coming and it would be worse than anything man has ever known (Matt. 24:20-21). He said if He didn’t personally intervene not one of them would survive it, but for the sake of the believers among them He would put an end to it at the appointed time (Matt. 24:22). He said false Messiahs and false prophets would perform great signs and miracles to deceive them as the end approached (Matt. 24:24).  (Paul confirmed this in 2 Thes. 2:9-10 placing its fulfillment after the rapture.) He said everyone on Earth will see Him when He comes back (Matt. 24:27) and it will be just like the Days of Noah. Unbelievers who survive the Great Tribulation will be taken away in the judgments that follow His return and believers will be welcomed into the Kingdom to build a new world. All this and more, He said to Israel. (Matt. 24:36-25:46) But did He speak one word of comfort, or even warning, to His Bride? Did He say He’d protect us through this terrifying time? Did He even acknowledge our existence? No. Not once. Why? Because He was talking to Israel about a time after we’re gone. He left it to Paul to explain the details of our rescue after it was too late to stop what He was about to do for us.

Again, we can look at Lot for guidance: “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:28-29) In Luke 17:26-27 Jesus had been saying how in the days of Noah unbelievers hadn’t heeded the warnings they were given, and didn’t avail themselves of the Lord’s provision for their rescue. They were caught by surprise when the flood came and it destroyed them all. At first glance verses 28-29 seem like a similar example, but it’s really very different. Lot was taken away from the time and place of the judgment before it began. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe. (Genesis 19:21-22) As I demonstrated earlier, Lot served as a model of the Church who also has to be rescued from the time and place of the coming judgment before it can begin.

“”Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.”” (John 11:25-26) This is an amazing statement. The Lord had already said that whoever believes in Him would not perish but would have eternal life. (John 3:16) Here he provided more detail, saying that even though a believer experiences physical death, he will still have life. He was referring to the resurrection of those who die in faith. And then He said there would be some would never die, but would pass from this life directly into the next one. If we didn’t already know about the rapture, we wouldn’t see this, but since we do we can understand that He was talking about that one generation of believers who will be alive when He comes for the Church, and will receive eternal life without dying first. And once again the Lord confirmed that the single qualification for eternal life is to believe that His death paid the entire price for our sins.

“”When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:” ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages.”” (Acts 15:13-18) It was not quite 20 years after the cross, and the Apostles were meeting together in Jerusalem. None of the New Testament had been written yet. 483 years of Daniel’s 490 year prophecy for Israel (Daniel 9:24-27) had been fulfilled on schedule but with the Messiah’s death everything had come to a stop. Before He died, the Lord had even told them that the Temple would soon be completely destroyed, and after His resurrection He had refused to confirm their hope that the Kingdom would now be restored to Israel. In effect He had said, “That’s not for you to know.” (Acts 1:6) And now Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had given eye witness accounts of the Holy Spirit coming directly upon Gentiles with much prophesying and speaking in tongues. If Gentiles could come straight to the Lord and receive the Holy Spirit without converting to Judaism first, did that mean God was finished with the Jews? If so what would become of Israel and all the Lord’s unfulfilled promises to His people? James, the Lord’s half-brother, helped them understand what was coming. What we now know as the Dispensation of Law had been interrupted while the Lord takes from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (the Church). In Greek the phrase “taking from” literally means to take out of, or carry away from. It denotes an exit, a separation of time, place, and cause. After He has taken the Church, James said, the Lord will turn His attention once again to Israel. The Temple will be rebuilt and the remaining 7 years of the Dispensation of Law will run their course. This is the time we know as Daniels 70th week. Here’s a hint that the rapture of the Church will take place before Daniel’s 70th Week begins. He concluded by saying the Lord has known for ages that He was going to do this. Paul, who was there, explained it to the Church at Rome this way: ““I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is (or will be) my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”” (Romans 11:25-27) The Greek word translated “full number” was often used in a nautical sense to define the number of sailors, oarsmen, and soldiers required to man a ship. Once a ship had its full number it could set sail for its intended destination. When it arrived it was said to have “come in.” I believe Paul’s intention was to say that the Church has a “full number” and once that number is reached it will set sail for its intended destination, heaven. No one on Earth knows this number or how close we are to reaching it and that’s why no one will know the day or hour of the rapture in advance. When the Church’s “full number” has “come in” to its heavenly destination, God will turn His attention once again to Israel and the final 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy will be fulfilled, culminating in the Lord’s return to establish His Kingdom. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel that Daniel said would never be destroyed, or left to another people, but will endure forever. (Daniel 2:44).

These are the rapture verses, named for the Latin translation of the Greek word harpadzo, which means to be caught up or snatched away in English, and which appears in 1 Thes. 4:17. “They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.” (1 Thes 1:10) “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thes. 4:16-17) For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:9) I have shown how closely they resemble Isaiah 26:19-21. I believe Paul was using Isaiah’s words to support his claim that this wasn’t just his idea, but had been announced by the Lord nearly eight hundred years earlier.

With the first letter to the Thessalonians Paul gave the first clear promise of a pre-Trib Rapture. When He called Jesus the one who will rescue us from the coming wrath in chapter 1, he meant that sometime before the seal judgments of Rev. 6, which signal the beginning of God’s wrath (Rev. 6:16-17) Jesus will separate the Church from the time and place of the End Times Judgments. (Look up the full meaning of the Greek word translated “from” in 1 Thes. 1: 10 to confirm this.) In Chapter 4 he said this separation would happen when the Lord comes to take us to be with Him in Heaven. First, believers who have died will be raised up. Then, we who are still alive will be snatched away with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then in chapter 5 he repeated the reason for our sudden rescue. It was never intended that the Church would suffer through the time of God’s wrath.

Between 1st and 2nd Thessalonians something happened that would have scared the recipients’ right out of their socks had they been wearing any. They received a letter that appeared to be from Paul but was in fact a forgery. According to 2 Thes 2:1-2 it said the Day of the Lord had already come. Confused and frightened, they dashed off a hurried request for clarification since this new letter contradicted what Paul had previously taught them. Here we get an extraordinary insight into their understanding of the sequence of End Times events. Receiving word that the Day of the Lord had come would only have upset them so much if they’d been led to believe that the Rapture of the Church would precede it. Think about it. From any other view, this kind of news would have been scary for sure, but their fear would have been tempered by a certain amount of joyous anticipation. Sure the next few years would really be rough, but whether by martyrdom or survival they would soon be in the presence of the Lord forever. But from the pre-Trib perspective, hearing that the Day of the Lord had come would be horrifying, because it would mean that they had missed the rapture. And that would mean they weren’t saved.

It’s important to understand that they had asked Paul two questions. The first concerned the Day of the Lord and the second was about our being gathered to Him, the Rapture. Paul answered the 2 questions in that order using verses 3-5 to describe conditions that would bring about the Day of the Lord and verses 6-8 to explain when the rapture would occur in relation to them. “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?” (2 Thes. 2:3-5) Confirming and amplifying Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9:27) and the Lord’s warning from the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15), Paul pegged the beginning of the Great Tribulation to the moment the Antichrist stands in the Temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be God. “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” (2 Thes. 2:6-8)

Before the Antichrist can be officially revealed, the One who is currently limiting the power of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. The phrase “out of the way” literally means out of the midst, or from amongst. Some force that restrains the power of evil within certain predetermined limits (for this power is already at work on Earth) has to be removed. Scholars who read the passage literally identify this force as the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit is sealed within us, if He’s taken out from amongst the people of Earth, we have to go too. You can’t take the Restrainer without taking the container, as someone has said. This is the Rapture of the Church, and once we’re gone the power of evil will be free from restraint and all Hell will break loose on Earth until the Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to put a stop to it. Here then is the sequence. Before the Day of the Lord can come, the antichrist has to be revealed, and before he can be revealed the church has to be raptured. So according to Paul the next prophetic event involving believers could be our own disappearance.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul was teaching about the resurrection, responding to questions about how the dead will be raised and what we’ll look like. He used an example from agriculture to describe it. You can’t tell what a plant will look like by examining the seed. You have to plant it and wait till it grows. When it does the plant will look different from the seed, but the farmer will recognize it as having come from the seed he planted. He said that’s the way it is with us. We can’t enter Heaven in our earthly state, so we have to be changed into our heavenly state. When we are, the splendor of our heavenly body will be different from the splendor of our earthly one, but we’ll still be recognizable. Just as we can we can tell the sun from the moon and the stars from either and from each other, so it will be with us. We’ll all be unique, recognizable individuals.

Then in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 He wrote: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” The Greek word for mystery means secret. By saying he was going to tell them a mystery, Paul was saying he was about to reveal a secret. And here it is. When the Lord comes down to meet us in the air we’ll receive no advance notice. In one instant we’ll be going about our business here on Earth and in the next we’ll be standing in the Kingdom. It will happen so fast we won’t have time to blink our eyes. We’ll hear the Trumpet call of God and the voice of the archangel and we’ll step out of this world into the next one. As we look around we’ll realize that multitudes of believers from the Church Age have joined us. The dead will have been given new bodies and the living will have been transformed from mortal to immortal. Paul said we’ll know as we’re known (1 Cor. 13:12), so just as the Lord will recognize each of us, we’ll recognize each other. And John said that what we’ll be is not yet known, but we know that when He appears we’ll be like Him (1 John 3:2). To me that means we’ll have the same capabilities that He demonstrated after His resurrection. Don’t confuse the trumpet we’ll hear with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. 11:15. In the first place what we’ll hear is the trumpet of God, mentioned elsewhere only in Exodus 19:13 & 19. The 7th Trumpet is blown by an angel in Heaven, announces the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and is never called the last trumpet. As I said, the Trumpet of God is only mentioned twice in the Bible. The first one is in Exodus 19 at Mt. Sinai and the last one is in 1 Thes. 4.

There are some incredible parallels between the giving of the Law and the Rapture of the Church. And as you might expect there are also some big differences. We’ll look at the similarities first. Both are accompanied by the audible voice of God and both create a Kingdom. At Mt. Sinai the Israelites were redeemed from slavery, at the Rapture we’re redeemed from sin. They were consecrated, we’re perfected. They washed their clothes, we’re given clean clothes. God came to the Mt. top, Jesus comes to the air. At Mt. Sinai Moses and Aaron went up, at the rapture we go up. At Mt. Sinai Israel was wed to God. At the Rapture the Church is wed to Jesus. At Mt. Sinai God dwelt with Israel and at the rapture the Church will dwell with Jesus. Since many Biblical models are necessarily incomplete, there are also some obvious differences. Only Moses and Aaron could ascend the mountain. Anyone else going up passed from life to death. At the rapture we all go up and everyone passes from death to life. God promised to dwell with Israel if they obeyed. We will dwell with Jesus because He obeyed. They changed themselves temporarily, He changes us permanently. Theirs was an event accompanied by great fear, ours is an event anticipated with great joy. After all Mt. Sinai was the presentation of God’s Law, and the Rapture is the manifestation of His grace. God blew the First Trump in Exodus 19 in preparation for the giving of the Law, and will blow the Last Trump in 1 Thes. 4:16 to initiate the Rapture.

Abraham had reminded the Lord that His character wouldn’t allow Him to judge the righteous with the wicked. Even though the negotiated requirement of 10 righteous men to spare Sodom and Gomorrah hadn’t been met, God instructed the angels to remove Lot before destroying the cities. Speaking of this Peter wrote, “If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the Day of Judgment, while continuing their punishment.” (2 Peter 2:9) Peter wanted us to see from the example of Lot that his case wasn’t an isolated incident but was meant to convey a general principle. The Greek word translated “from” in the NIV is more clearly rendered “out of” in the King James. It means away from the time and place of the event being referenced. We see a similar idea conveyed in Isaiah 57:1: “The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.” Here the Hebrew word translated “taken away” means to gather in, receive, or remove. God’s character is such that He can’t allow the righteous to be punished with the wicked.

I’ve previously stated how the seven churches of Rev. 2-3 chronicle Church history. I stated that the first 3 churches (Ephesus, Smyrna and Pergamus) have all disappeared and the remaining 4 (Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea) are all present today. Viewed in chronological order and compared to Church history these four represent the Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Apostate churches of today. In Rev. 2: 22-24 the Lord warned that some from the Church in Thyatira will face the tribulation while others will be rescued and share in rewards that are uniquely reserved for true believers, which includes the rapture. The distinction will be made on the basis of their beliefs. Those who’ve remained true to the Gospel will go while those who adhere to the Catholic Church’s “Jesus plus Mary, grace plus works, and Scripture plus sacraments” doctrine will not.

In the letter to Sardis, which represents the main line denominations, Jesus warned of dead orthodoxy having only the appearance of life. “Remember what you have received and heard and obey it,” He said, “Or else you won’t know at what time I will come to you.” He was referring to the Gospel, and notice He said “to you”, not “for you”. Many in the main line denominations don’t know they need to be born again, haven’t got a clue that we’re in the end times and have never even heard of the rapture. As in Thyatira, he said there are a few in Sardis who have remained true. They’ll walk with Him for they are worthy. Once again some will be taken and some left based on what they believe.

Philadelphia is often called The Church of the Rapture because of the Lord’s promise to keep us from the hour of trial that’s going to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The Greek word translated “from” here is the same one Peter used in describing the Lord’s ability to rescue godly men from trials. Remember it means away from the time and place of the event being referenced, in this case the End Times judgments that are coming upon the whole world. Because we’ve kept His word and not denied His name, He has promised us a place in the New Jerusalem, where only those whose names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life can enter (Rev. 21:27). This is the Lord’s personal confirmation of a pre-Trib rapture, which when John wrote this in about 95AD had been taught on Earth for nearly 50 years.

The “Church” at Laodicea is really an apostate movement, a spiritual rebellion. Although it has been around throughout the Church Age, its current prominence is a sign that the End of the Age is approaching (2 Thes. 2:3) Thinking of itself as rich and self-sufficient, it lacks the one thing money can’t buy, a Savior. He’s outside the door knocking, hoping someone will hear. There’s no promise to rescue the group, who will be spit out of his mouth, only to individuals who hear and respond.

At the beginning of Rev. 4, John was called forward to the End of the Age and up into Heaven to observe and report on events that were nearly 2000 years in his future. When he arrived at the throne of God he saw a group never before seen in any of the Bible’s pictures of God’s throne. Isaiah didn’t see them (Isaiah 6) Ezekiel didn’t see them (Ezekiel 1 & 10), and even Daniel, whose vision was oriented in the End Times only saw a vague hint in the form of plural thrones (Daniel 7:9). I’m speaking of the 24 elders sitting on thrones encircling the Throne of God (Rev. 4:4) These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, so their work is done. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing crowns, so they’re kings. It’s the Greek “stephanos” crown so they’re victors, over comers. They’re called Elders, a title associated with the Church. That’s a pretty strong case for them representing the Church, and no one has ever come up with a better one. Some try to explain the 24 thrones by saying that they belong to an unidentified group of ruling angels. But four prophets saw the throne of God and recorded their experience. Of the four, only John saw them. And note that the Church won’t receive crowns until the Bema Seat judgment that takes place after the Rapture. Is this a symbolic view of the church in Heaven before the judgments begin? It looks that way to me.

“”And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men (us) for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them (us) to be a kingdom (kings) and priests to serve our God, and they (we) will reign on the earth.”” (Rev. 5:8-10) This is a controversial passage and taken by itself it’s difficult to understand.  But even though most of the modern translations read like the one above, both the King James Version and Young’s Literal Translation put the passage in the first person plural as I’ve indicated in parentheses.  The first person version helps support the view that the 24 Elders represent the Church. Also, the Greek word for King and Kingdom is the same, differing only by gender.  King is the masculine form and is the one that appears in Rev. 5:10.  (Kingdom is feminine.)  So the verse is more grammatically and theologically correct when it’s translated Kings and Priests, which define the Church, rather than a kingdom and priests.  And there’s no other group that fits the description of verse 9.  Finally, the song is more consistent with the context of the passage when it’s sung by the redeemed Church, not by a third party singing about the Church. Taken together Rev. 4-5 present a good circumstantial case for the Church being present in Heaven before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. As we’ve already seen, this is what the Bible has promised from the beginning.

Speaking of the anti-Christ and his 10 king confederacy Rev. 17:14 says, “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” This is an overview statement that describes the Great Tribulation, during which Satan, working through the anti-Christ, will attempt to assert his ownership claim to Planet Earth. Rev. 17:13 says these 10 kings will have only that one purpose during the time of their reign.  Rev. 17:17 says that the Lord will agree to their rule in order for them to accomplish His purpose, not theirs, and that’s to destroy the Great Prostitute. Once they’re finished with her He will appear to personally oversee their defeat. And guess who’ll be with Him when He returns? His called, chosen and faithful followers. That can only be the Church, in Heaven during the Great Tribulation, and returning with Him at its end. From Genesis to Revelation, the overwhelming weight of evidence, some circumstantial and some testimonial shows that the Lord always intended to remove the Church from Earth before the End Times Judgments and to hide us in His Father’s house until His wrath has passed by.

It took me a long time to do this, and I have nothing more to add. I won't respond any further.

[Ezra]

It took me a long time to do this, and I have nothing more to add. I won't respond any further.

In a nutshell, salvation for the Church and wrath for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Rick-Parker,

Well written with good info. I agree with most of it. Just a few details I would question, but not on this thread.

Marilyn.

[SINNERSAVED]

5 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

SINNERSAVED, you have challenged me to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-Trib rapture. So, here is me exhaustive study. It is long, as anyone would imagine it would be to be comprehensive. I sincerely doubt that you will bother to read it all the way through or that it will change your mind as those who don’t want to believe the literal/contextual interpretation of the Scriptures tend to have closed their minds. But those who choose to read it all and check the Scriptures to confirm what I have said, will at least have a much clearer picture of what the Holy Spirit is saying in His Book and can make a more informed decision on where their Hope lies.

As you may know I believe Paul was the first person on Earth to present a clear pre-Trib teaching, about 20 years after the cross. Before that time it was unknown because Jesus didn’t teach it to His other disciples during their time together. And since the Olivet Discourse is directed at Israel, there’s no mention of it there either, even though the end times is in view. Israel will not participate in the rapture. Now I’ll be the first to admit that doing this requires that you already have a working knowledge of the pre-Trib position, because without it you wouldn’t recognize some of these references as being pertinent to the subject. But ever since Paul revealed the rapture, scholars have been seeing hints of it here and there, even in the Old Testament.

Before we begin, in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 Paul explained why God’s plans for the Church had been kept secret until after the crucifixion. He said that if the rulers of this age (Satan & Co.) had understood all that God intended for us they would not have crucified the Lord. Not that they could have stopped it, of course. But had they known God was going to use the murder of His Son to save us all, they wouldn’t have gone ahead with it, and in fact would have tried to prevent it. It wasn’t until He was on the cross that they discovered the Lord’s death was going to become payment in full for all our sins, so instead of it being cause for a great celebration it totally disarmed them and made them into a public spectacle (Colossians 2:13-15). Then, 20 years later, they learned about the rapture. These were both things that God had planned from the beginning, but a good general keeps his strategy a secret in order to take his enemy by surprise, so God didn’t let Satan (or anyone else) know about these things until it was too late for him to react. Even now, Satan doesn’t know when the rapture is coming. All he knows is what we know, that each new believer could be the last one, the one that takes us all out of here and beyond his reach forever.

I’m convinced that God’s plan requires the Church to disappear before Daniel’s 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24) At the end of 69 weeks (483 years) Jesus was crucified, the clock suddenly stopped, and Israel disappeared along with its Temple and Old Covenant worship. Daniel’s prophecy was left incomplete and from that time on, God’s focus was on the church.

The reappearance of Israel in 1948, the promised rebuilding of a Temple, and the resumption of Levitical sacrifice during the 70th week make it clear that the Church didn’t end the dispensation of Law but only interrupted it seven years short of its intended duration. We would all agree that if the introduction of a dam into a stream of water interrupts its flow, then it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that removal of the dam will be necessary for the flow to resume. Therefore if the introduction of the Church after the 69th week of Daniels prophecy caused the interruption in its fulfillment, it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that the Church will have to be removed before the final seven years of the dispensation of Law can run their course and Daniel’s prophecy can be fulfilled.

Of course there are other sound reasons why the church has to disappear before the End Times begin in earnest. Not having a destiny on Earth, our presence here would serve no purpose during the time of Earth’s liberation from bondage (Romans 8:19-21). Not being subject to judgment the Church has no unfinished business with God that could be concluded during the End Times. Unlike Israel we don’t need to be made righteous because we’re already as righteous as God is (2 Cor. 5:21).

Jeremiah 30:11 says the End time judgments will serve a twofold purpose, to completely destroy all the nations among which Israel has been scattered and to discipline Israel. Since God does not consider the Church to be part of either Israel or the nations, our presence on Earth during that time would be unnecessary. But the most important reason, as we’ll see, is that God said we won’t be here. Those who teach the Church’s presence on Earth during any part of Daniel’s 70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.

With that introduction, let’s look at some of the clearest hints God placed in the Scriptures to show He has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Naturally, we’ll begin in the Old Testament. “Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away.” (Genesis 5:24) In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46) But, if you give the Lord’s statement its widest possible application, you can see that as the time of the Great Flood drew near there were 3 kinds of people on Earth. There were the unbelievers who perished in the flood, Noah and his family who were preserved through it, and Enoch, who was taken by the Lord well before it. Just so, as the End of the Age draws near there will still be three kinds of people on Earth. They are the unbelievers of our time who will perish in the End Times judgments, modern Israel who will be preserved through them, and the Church who will be taken by God well before they begin.

There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, “Go and make disciples (students) of all men.” (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. It’s the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Another example is Lot. “But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (Genesis 19:23) Abraham had struck a bargain with the Lord that if even 10 righteous people could be found in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the cities. The fact that the cities were destroyed indicates 10 righteous people could not be found there. But there was one, and though He wasn’t bound to do it, the Lord instructed the angels to get Lot out of town before commencing their judgment. As you see above, Genesis 19:22 tells us the angels could not execute the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was safely away.  Peter referred to Lot’s rescue from Sodom as evidence that the Lord does not judge the righteous with the wicked (2 Peter 2:7-9).  Lot therefore becomes a model of the Church, who with a righteousness imputed by faith, has to be removed from the time and place of judgment before it begins.

Daniel 3 contains one of the most popular children’s stories of the Old Testament. Many don’t realize that it’s also one of the clearest models of the End Times anywhere in the Bible. King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Daniel’s three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon. But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you don’t know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you don’t know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story it’s as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while a believing remnant of Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.

Let’s see what Isaiah has to say about it. “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.” (Isaiah 26:19-21) Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lord’s intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It can’t be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it can’t be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of God’s wrath, not before it. (Daniel 12:1-2) Someday soon a group of people will suddenly rise from the dead. Another group, still living, will be whisked away to rooms prepared for them to be hidden from the time of God’s wrath. Then the Lord will punish the people of the Earth for their sins. The fact that the groups being resurrected and hidden are not objects of his wrath is indicated by the switch from second person (resurrected and hidden) to third person (punished).

Notice how similar the wording is to 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture: But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (“The dead in Christ will rise first”); “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (“After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air”). It’s appropriate to insert John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about. “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His father’s house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”) I’m convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.“ (1 Thes. 4:15). I say this because with the exception of 1 Thes 4:16-17 there is no passage in all the Bible that so clearly describes the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. This is not the sum of Old Testament verses that point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But it’s a good sample of the clearest ones, to help you see that God always intended to take us to be with him before He unleashes the End Times judgments upon the unbelieving Earth.

Because Paul was the first to reveal the mystery of the Rapture, we won’t expect to find a clear explanation in the Gospels, but since we already know about it, we’ll be able to spot a couple of hints here and there. In His definitive teaching on the End Times, the Lord warned Israel they would be hated and persecuted by all nations because of Him (Matt. 24:9). He said many would fall away from the faith, and would betray and hate each other (Matt. 24:10). He said their Temple would be desecrated by another Abomination of Desolation, and when that happened those in Judea (the New Testament name for Israel) would have to flee into the mountains immediately (Matt. 24:15). He told them to pray that their flight wouldn’t take place in the winter (winters can be harsh in the Judean wilderness) or on the Sabbath (fleeing would violate Sabbath travel restrictions) because the Great Tribulation would be coming and it would be worse than anything man has ever known (Matt. 24:20-21). He said if He didn’t personally intervene not one of them would survive it, but for the sake of the believers among them He would put an end to it at the appointed time (Matt. 24:22). He said false Messiahs and false prophets would perform great signs and miracles to deceive them as the end approached (Matt. 24:24).  (Paul confirmed this in 2 Thes. 2:9-10 placing its fulfillment after the rapture.) He said everyone on Earth will see Him when He comes back (Matt. 24:27) and it will be just like the Days of Noah. Unbelievers who survive the Great Tribulation will be taken away in the judgments that follow His return and believers will be welcomed into the Kingdom to build a new world. All this and more, He said to Israel. (Matt. 24:36-25:46) But did He speak one word of comfort, or even warning, to His Bride? Did He say He’d protect us through this terrifying time? Did He even acknowledge our existence? No. Not once. Why? Because He was talking to Israel about a time after we’re gone. He left it to Paul to explain the details of our rescue after it was too late to stop what He was about to do for us.

Again, we can look at Lot for guidance: “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:28-29) In Luke 17:26-27 Jesus had been saying how in the days of Noah unbelievers hadn’t heeded the warnings they were given, and didn’t avail themselves of the Lord’s provision for their rescue. They were caught by surprise when the flood came and it destroyed them all. At first glance verses 28-29 seem like a similar example, but it’s really very different. Lot was taken away from the time and place of the judgment before it began. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe. (Genesis 19:21-22) As I demonstrated earlier, Lot served as a model of the Church who also has to be rescued from the time and place of the coming judgment before it can begin.

“”Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.”” (John 11:25-26) This is an amazing statement. The Lord had already said that whoever believes in Him would not perish but would have eternal life. (John 3:16) Here he provided more detail, saying that even though a believer experiences physical death, he will still have life. He was referring to the resurrection of those who die in faith. And then He said there would be some would never die, but would pass from this life directly into the next one. If we didn’t already know about the rapture, we wouldn’t see this, but since we do we can understand that He was talking about that one generation of believers who will be alive when He comes for the Church, and will receive eternal life without dying first. And once again the Lord confirmed that the single qualification for eternal life is to believe that His death paid the entire price for our sins.

“”When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:” ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages.”” (Acts 15:13-18) It was not quite 20 years after the cross, and the Apostles were meeting together in Jerusalem. None of the New Testament had been written yet. 483 years of Daniel’s 490 year prophecy for Israel (Daniel 9:24-27) had been fulfilled on schedule but with the Messiah’s death everything had come to a stop. Before He died, the Lord had even told them that the Temple would soon be completely destroyed, and after His resurrection He had refused to confirm their hope that the Kingdom would now be restored to Israel. In effect He had said, “That’s not for you to know.” (Acts 1:6) And now Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had given eye witness accounts of the Holy Spirit coming directly upon Gentiles with much prophesying and speaking in tongues. If Gentiles could come straight to the Lord and receive the Holy Spirit without converting to Judaism first, did that mean God was finished with the Jews? If so what would become of Israel and all the Lord’s unfulfilled promises to His people? James, the Lord’s half-brother, helped them understand what was coming. What we now know as the Dispensation of Law had been interrupted while the Lord takes from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (the Church). In Greek the phrase “taking from” literally means to take out of, or carry away from. It denotes an exit, a separation of time, place, and cause. After He has taken the Church, James said, the Lord will turn His attention once again to Israel. The Temple will be rebuilt and the remaining 7 years of the Dispensation of Law will run their course. This is the time we know as Daniels 70th week. Here’s a hint that the rapture of the Church will take place before Daniel’s 70th Week begins. He concluded by saying the Lord has known for ages that He was going to do this. Paul, who was there, explained it to the Church at Rome this way: ““I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is (or will be) my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”” (Romans 11:25-27) The Greek word translated “full number” was often used in a nautical sense to define the number of sailors, oarsmen, and soldiers required to man a ship. Once a ship had its full number it could set sail for its intended destination. When it arrived it was said to have “come in.” I believe Paul’s intention was to say that the Church has a “full number” and once that number is reached it will set sail for its intended destination, heaven. No one on Earth knows this number or how close we are to reaching it and that’s why no one will know the day or hour of the rapture in advance. When the Church’s “full number” has “come in” to its heavenly destination, God will turn His attention once again to Israel and the final 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy will be fulfilled, culminating in the Lord’s return to establish His Kingdom. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel that Daniel said would never be destroyed, or left to another people, but will endure forever. (Daniel 2:44).

These are the rapture verses, named for the Latin translation of the Greek word harpadzo, which means to be caught up or snatched away in English, and which appears in 1 Thes. 4:17. “They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.” (1 Thes 1:10) “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thes. 4:16-17) For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:9) I have shown how closely they resemble Isaiah 26:19-21. I believe Paul was using Isaiah’s words to support his claim that this wasn’t just his idea, but had been announced by the Lord nearly eight hundred years earlier.

With the first letter to the Thessalonians Paul gave the first clear promise of a pre-Trib Rapture. When He called Jesus the one who will rescue us from the coming wrath in chapter 1, he meant that sometime before the seal judgments of Rev. 6, which signal the beginning of God’s wrath (Rev. 6:16-17) Jesus will separate the Church from the time and place of the End Times Judgments. (Look up the full meaning of the Greek word translated “from” in 1 Thes. 1: 10 to confirm this.) In Chapter 4 he said this separation would happen when the Lord comes to take us to be with Him in Heaven. First, believers who have died will be raised up. Then, we who are still alive will be snatched away with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then in chapter 5 he repeated the reason for our sudden rescue. It was never intended that the Church would suffer through the time of God’s wrath.

Between 1st and 2nd Thessalonians something happened that would have scared the recipients’ right out of their socks had they been wearing any. They received a letter that appeared to be from Paul but was in fact a forgery. According to 2 Thes 2:1-2 it said the Day of the Lord had already come. Confused and frightened, they dashed off a hurried request for clarification since this new letter contradicted what Paul had previously taught them. Here we get an extraordinary insight into their understanding of the sequence of End Times events. Receiving word that the Day of the Lord had come would only have upset them so much if they’d been led to believe that the Rapture of the Church would precede it. Think about it. From any other view, this kind of news would have been scary for sure, but their fear would have been tempered by a certain amount of joyous anticipation. Sure the next few years would really be rough, but whether by martyrdom or survival they would soon be in the presence of the Lord forever. But from the pre-Trib perspective, hearing that the Day of the Lord had come would be horrifying, because it would mean that they had missed the rapture. And that would mean they weren’t saved.

It’s important to understand that they had asked Paul two questions. The first concerned the Day of the Lord and the second was about our being gathered to Him, the Rapture. Paul answered the 2 questions in that order using verses 3-5 to describe conditions that would bring about the Day of the Lord and verses 6-8 to explain when the rapture would occur in relation to them. “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?” (2 Thes. 2:3-5) Confirming and amplifying Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9:27) and the Lord’s warning from the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15), Paul pegged the beginning of the Great Tribulation to the moment the Antichrist stands in the Temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be God. “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” (2 Thes. 2:6-8)

Before the Antichrist can be officially revealed, the One who is currently limiting the power of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. The phrase “out of the way” literally means out of the midst, or from amongst. Some force that restrains the power of evil within certain predetermined limits (for this power is already at work on Earth) has to be removed. Scholars who read the passage literally identify this force as the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit is sealed within us, if He’s taken out from amongst the people of Earth, we have to go too. You can’t take the Restrainer without taking the container, as someone has said. This is the Rapture of the Church, and once we’re gone the power of evil will be free from restraint and all Hell will break loose on Earth until the Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to put a stop to it. Here then is the sequence. Before the Day of the Lord can come, the antichrist has to be revealed, and before he can be revealed the church has to be raptured. So according to Paul the next prophetic event involving believers could be our own disappearance.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul was teaching about the resurrection, responding to questions about how the dead will be raised and what we’ll look like. He used an example from agriculture to describe it. You can’t tell what a plant will look like by examining the seed. You have to plant it and wait till it grows. When it does the plant will look different from the seed, but the farmer will recognize it as having come from the seed he planted. He said that’s the way it is with us. We can’t enter Heaven in our earthly state, so we have to be changed into our heavenly state. When we are, the splendor of our heavenly body will be different from the splendor of our earthly one, but we’ll still be recognizable. Just as we can we can tell the sun from the moon and the stars from either and from each other, so it will be with us. We’ll all be unique, recognizable individuals.

Then in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 He wrote: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” The Greek word for mystery means secret. By saying he was going to tell them a mystery, Paul was saying he was about to reveal a secret. And here it is. When the Lord comes down to meet us in the air we’ll receive no advance notice. In one instant we’ll be going about our business here on Earth and in the next we’ll be standing in the Kingdom. It will happen so fast we won’t have time to blink our eyes. We’ll hear the Trumpet call of God and the voice of the archangel and we’ll step out of this world into the next one. As we look around we’ll realize that multitudes of believers from the Church Age have joined us. The dead will have been given new bodies and the living will have been transformed from mortal to immortal. Paul said we’ll know as we’re known (1 Cor. 13:12), so just as the Lord will recognize each of us, we’ll recognize each other. And John said that what we’ll be is not yet known, but we know that when He appears we’ll be like Him (1 John 3:2). To me that means we’ll have the same capabilities that He demonstrated after His resurrection. Don’t confuse the trumpet we’ll hear with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. 11:15. In the first place what we’ll hear is the trumpet of God, mentioned elsewhere only in Exodus 19:13 & 19. The 7th Trumpet is blown by an angel in Heaven, announces the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and is never called the last trumpet. As I said, the Trumpet of God is only mentioned twice in the Bible. The first one is in Exodus 19 at Mt. Sinai and the last one is in 1 Thes. 4.

There are some incredible parallels between the giving of the Law and the Rapture of the Church. And as you might expect there are also some big differences. We’ll look at the similarities first. Both are accompanied by the audible voice of God and both create a Kingdom. At Mt. Sinai the Israelites were redeemed from slavery, at the Rapture we’re redeemed from sin. They were consecrated, we’re perfected. They washed their clothes, we’re given clean clothes. God came to the Mt. top, Jesus comes to the air. At Mt. Sinai Moses and Aaron went up, at the rapture we go up. At Mt. Sinai Israel was wed to God. At the Rapture the Church is wed to Jesus. At Mt. Sinai God dwelt with Israel and at the rapture the Church will dwell with Jesus. Since many Biblical models are necessarily incomplete, there are also some obvious differences. Only Moses and Aaron could ascend the mountain. Anyone else going up passed from life to death. At the rapture we all go up and everyone passes from death to life. God promised to dwell with Israel if they obeyed. We will dwell with Jesus because He obeyed. They changed themselves temporarily, He changes us permanently. Theirs was an event accompanied by great fear, ours is an event anticipated with great joy. After all Mt. Sinai was the presentation of God’s Law, and the Rapture is the manifestation of His grace. God blew the First Trump in Exodus 19 in preparation for the giving of the Law, and will blow the Last Trump in 1 Thes. 4:16 to initiate the Rapture.

Abraham had reminded the Lord that His character wouldn’t allow Him to judge the righteous with the wicked. Even though the negotiated requirement of 10 righteous men to spare Sodom and Gomorrah hadn’t been met, God instructed the angels to remove Lot before destroying the cities. Speaking of this Peter wrote, “If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the Day of Judgment, while continuing their punishment.” (2 Peter 2:9) Peter wanted us to see from the example of Lot that his case wasn’t an isolated incident but was meant to convey a general principle. The Greek word translated “from” in the NIV is more clearly rendered “out of” in the King James. It means away from the time and place of the event being referenced. We see a similar idea conveyed in Isaiah 57:1: “The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.” Here the Hebrew word translated “taken away” means to gather in, receive, or remove. God’s character is such that He can’t allow the righteous to be punished with the wicked.

I’ve previously stated how the seven churches of Rev. 2-3 chronicle Church history. I stated that the first 3 churches (Ephesus, Smyrna and Pergamus) have all disappeared and the remaining 4 (Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea) are all present today. Viewed in chronological order and compared to Church history these four represent the Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Apostate churches of today. In Rev. 2: 22-24 the Lord warned that some from the Church in Thyatira will face the tribulation while others will be rescued and share in rewards that are uniquely reserved for true believers, which includes the rapture. The distinction will be made on the basis of their beliefs. Those who’ve remained true to the Gospel will go while those who adhere to the Catholic Church’s “Jesus plus Mary, grace plus works, and Scripture plus sacraments” doctrine will not.

In the letter to Sardis, which represents the main line denominations, Jesus warned of dead orthodoxy having only the appearance of life. “Remember what you have received and heard and obey it,” He said, “Or else you won’t know at what time I will come to you.” He was referring to the Gospel, and notice He said “to you”, not “for you”. Many in the main line denominations don’t know they need to be born again, haven’t got a clue that we’re in the end times and have never even heard of the rapture. As in Thyatira, he said there are a few in Sardis who have remained true. They’ll walk with Him for they are worthy. Once again some will be taken and some left based on what they believe.

Philadelphia is often called The Church of the Rapture because of the Lord’s promise to keep us from the hour of trial that’s going to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The Greek word translated “from” here is the same one Peter used in describing the Lord’s ability to rescue godly men from trials. Remember it means away from the time and place of the event being referenced, in this case the End Times judgments that are coming upon the whole world. Because we’ve kept His word and not denied His name, He has promised us a place in the New Jerusalem, where only those whose names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life can enter (Rev. 21:27). This is the Lord’s personal confirmation of a pre-Trib rapture, which when John wrote this in about 95AD had been taught on Earth for nearly 50 years.

The “Church” at Laodicea is really an apostate movement, a spiritual rebellion. Although it has been around throughout the Church Age, its current prominence is a sign that the End of the Age is approaching (2 Thes. 2:3) Thinking of itself as rich and self-sufficient, it lacks the one thing money can’t buy, a Savior. He’s outside the door knocking, hoping someone will hear. There’s no promise to rescue the group, who will be spit out of his mouth, only to individuals who hear and respond.

At the beginning of Rev. 4, John was called forward to the End of the Age and up into Heaven to observe and report on events that were nearly 2000 years in his future. When he arrived at the throne of God he saw a group never before seen in any of the Bible’s pictures of God’s throne. Isaiah didn’t see them (Isaiah 6) Ezekiel didn’t see them (Ezekiel 1 & 10), and even Daniel, whose vision was oriented in the End Times only saw a vague hint in the form of plural thrones (Daniel 7:9). I’m speaking of the 24 elders sitting on thrones encircling the Throne of God (Rev. 4:4) These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, so their work is done. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing crowns, so they’re kings. It’s the Greek “stephanos” crown so they’re victors, over comers. They’re called Elders, a title associated with the Church. That’s a pretty strong case for them representing the Church, and no one has ever come up with a better one. Some try to explain the 24 thrones by saying that they belong to an unidentified group of ruling angels. But four prophets saw the throne of God and recorded their experience. Of the four, only John saw them. And note that the Church won’t receive crowns until the Bema Seat judgment that takes place after the Rapture. Is this a symbolic view of the church in Heaven before the judgments begin? It looks that way to me.

“”And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men (us) for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them (us) to be a kingdom (kings) and priests to serve our God, and they (we) will reign on the earth.”” (Rev. 5:8-10) This is a controversial passage and taken by itself it’s difficult to understand.  But even though most of the modern translations read like the one above, both the King James Version and Young’s Literal Translation put the passage in the first person plural as I’ve indicated in parentheses.  The first person version helps support the view that the 24 Elders represent the Church. Also, the Greek word for King and Kingdom is the same, differing only by gender.  King is the masculine form and is the one that appears in Rev. 5:10.  (Kingdom is feminine.)  So the verse is more grammatically and theologically correct when it’s translated Kings and Priests, which define the Church, rather than a kingdom and priests.  And there’s no other group that fits the description of verse 9.  Finally, the song is more consistent with the context of the passage when it’s sung by the redeemed Church, not by a third party singing about the Church. Taken together Rev. 4-5 present a good circumstantial case for the Church being present in Heaven before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. As we’ve already seen, this is what the Bible has promised from the beginning.

Speaking of the anti-Christ and his 10 king confederacy Rev. 17:14 says, “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” This is an overview statement that describes the Great Tribulation, during which Satan, working through the anti-Christ, will attempt to assert his ownership claim to Planet Earth. Rev. 17:13 says these 10 kings will have only that one purpose during the time of their reign.  Rev. 17:17 says that the Lord will agree to their rule in order for them to accomplish His purpose, not theirs, and that’s to destroy the Great Prostitute. Once they’re finished with her He will appear to personally oversee their defeat. And guess who’ll be with Him when He returns? His called, chosen and faithful followers. That can only be the Church, in Heaven during the Great Tribulation, and returning with Him at its end. From Genesis to Revelation, the overwhelming weight of evidence, some circumstantial and some testimonial shows that the Lord always intended to remove the Church from Earth before the End Times Judgments and to hide us in His Father’s house until His wrath has passed by.

It took me a long time to do this, and I have nothing more to add. I won't respond any further.

okay ,I have read all that you wrote, and you are convinced that you will not enter into tribulation, all these verses , are placed after the tribulation and cannot be before, you see that like many people also say the church is not in revelation after the 3rd chapter, and john was in the spirit so the church is not here, this is a wishful and bad assumption to make a wrong a right,

I appreciate your post, but the facts are the facts, Jesus said you will have tribulation and will be killed for his name sake,

simple jeff just shared how in Africa , and china, they are killing Christians, like nothing for what they believe in, does a African in Africa , different from you and me in the states ? if you think so , because tribulation has not knocked at your door yet, then you have been deceived to believe the lie,

planted in the Christian churches to believe we get a free pass out ,and because , God loves us , so we don't face anything bad or evil, we are just untouchable, are you really able to except that?

okay , so you hang on this scripture, that cannot be compared to another of its own to verify, a fact,

you must believe in the left behind movie also,

if we did not be subjected, to any tribulation, do you think this is what the bible tells you?

then you are following a different Jesus , for by the words of His mouth, we are told the way is narrow and only a few enter in.

we go through tribulation. proven when Jesus said when you see this things spoken of by  Daniel, let them not go back in, but flee.

the abomination of desolation, so there is no way , we are gone, in revelation satan was given 42 months

,allowed to overcome the saints, who are the saints ? for if God does not inter in to protect , no flesh would survive.

this is the wings to carry to safety,

lot was saved through the tribulation, noah was saved through the tribulation, the people of came out of Egypt through the tribulation

matthew 24 states after the tribulation He will return.

this is biblical, truth, in context and in  the pattern we are taught ,this leaves no doubt, we are told this flows inline with scripture.

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

SINNERSAVED, you have challenged me to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-Trib rapture. ..

I’m convinced that God’s plan requires the Church to disappear before Daniel’s 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24)

The above sentence is your first in the defense of pre-trib, and it is false. Why read any more?

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks have been determined 'al /upon your people and 'al /upon your holy city...

Daniel 9:24 says nothing about the need "for Israel to accomplish 6 things." It says that those things have been determined to come upon Israel regardless of what Israel does. If you cannot understand the difference between being the receiver of the action rather than the accomplisher of the action, then this shows you are willing to put your spin on any verse.

[MorningGlory]

7 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

It took me a long time to do this, and I have nothing more to add. I won't respond any further.

I'm only quoting the last line of your long post, Rick, for brevity's sake.  But I agree with your post well done!

[Ezra]

 

Quote

Jesus said you will have tribulation and will be killed for his name sake

But He did not say "You will be subjected to God's wrath".  Quite the opposite. Study the Tribulation carefully. It is a period of wrath and judgement on the unbelieving world.  Go through Revelation chapters 6-18, and you won't find the word "church" or "churches", while you see all the judgements described.

[Marilyn C]

Hi SINNERSAVED,

`simple jeff just shared how in Africa , and china, they are killing Christians, like nothing for what they believe in, does a African in Africa , different from you and me in the states ? if you think so , because tribulation has not knocked at your door yet, then you have been deceived to believe the lie, planted in the Christian churches to believe we get a free pass out ,and because , God loves us , so we don't face anything bad or evil, we are just untouchable, are you really able to except that?`

I don`t think you understand what tribulations are. It can mean death & still maybe for us in the West, but the main trial we have to be overcomers is in regard to standing for the truth. And really I must say that having a so called comfy life really can make one `flabby` in the spirit & thus more prone to deception. So no free ride for the West.

Marilyn.