other one Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,121 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,851 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted December 25, 2015 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: If one can tell me approximately when Armageddon will happen. I then would be able to tell you approximately when the 2nd Coming is. So the Second Coming is easily calculated when one knows when Armageddon is finished. So its time is known. In Christ Montana Marv Omegaman How much eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage will happen during the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgment. So what you are indicating is that before the flood people were scorched with fire, many were killed by the sword, beasts of the field and plagues. And there was famine in the land, people were torment before the flood for 5 months like the sting of a scorpion. Was there a smell of blood from the waters in the air before the flood. Did the waters turn into blood before the flood. Would these provide a eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage environment before the flood. So as "in the days of Noah" before the flood people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. All were having a merry good time. I just wonder how you and others get a merry good time during the time of the Wrath of God. And if that is the case it is impossible for "as in the Days of Noah" to be the environment before the 2nd Coming. Impossible. In Christ Montana Marv I think you need to read the book of Enoch to see what the days of Noah were like..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said: Marv do we believe what you say here, or do we believe what the Bible plainly says? I think we better go with the Bible. yes I would second that,... lets read scripture correctly , and understand it first. marv ,i would not take what you say , for you have not read or understand what you are writing, you come up with ideas that are not in the bible, are you reading it , or ,are you stating what you think is scripture ? anyway , you don't even understand my question, please, how can you answer ,if you are not even understanding what I am saying or how I am posting the question ? do you think I just picked up my bible yesterday ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted December 25, 2015 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: Omegaman How much eating and drinking, marrying and giviong in marriage will happen during the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgment. So what you are indicating is that before the flood people were scorched with fire, many were killed by the sword, beasts of the field and plagues. And there was famine in the land, people were torment before the flood for 5 months like the sting of a scorpion. Was there a smell of blood from the waters in the air before the flood. Did the waters turn into blood before the flood. Would these provide a eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage environment before the flood. So as "in the days of Noah" before the flood people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. All were having a merry good time. I just wonder how you and others get a merry good time during the time of the Wrath of God. And if that is the case it is impossible for "as in the Days of Noah" to be the environment before the 2nd Coming. Impossible. In Christ Montana Marv Sorry Marv, I cannot make sense out of what you are trying to say above, I am sure you are making some sort of sense, the problem must be with me. All I can do is restate and make clearer, what it is that I am saying instead of what you think I am saying, of those things are different. First of, the phrase "As it was in the days of Noah" (or similar terms depending on which gospel, and which Bible translation), is explained to us by jesus. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. In that couple of sentences, Jesus describes what it is in the day of Noah, that we should note, namely that people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, right up to the day that Noah entered the ark Life was normal, these things had always been this way. As I said, life as normal. Then he goes on to say, that they knew nothing, until the flood came and took them away. There are two groups of people pictured here. One group or the other, or both, would be the ones who new nothing, until the flood took them away. Can we know who it was who knew nothing and was carried away in surprise? Well we have a couple of clues. One group was Noah and his wife, and his three sons, and their three wives, 8 people. That other group is those, who will not be one the ark. What did Jesus say about people? One thing He said, was that they were marrying and giving in marriage. The eight on board the ark, were already married, so Jesus is not referring to them. He also said "they" knew nothing, until the flood took them away. Was Noah and his family ignorant about the flood coming, or were they busy building an ark, for a flood they were expecting. Clearly, it was not Noah and his family, but those outside of the ark, that was caught off guard when the flood took them all away. Then the next words out of Jesus mouth is "That is how it will be, at the coming of the Son of Man". So, to recap, When Jesus returns, after the great tribulation, He will be seen visibly, and those not expecting Him, will be taken away to destruction. Typically, pre-trib believers (in my experience) have no issue with that, for they too believe that Jesus will return visibly and it will be terrible for those who are on the earth un-prepared. Where they disagree with posties such as myself, is they choose to believe that there is some additional coming, that happens before all of this, that Jesus neglected to mention. Some (not all) also believe that Noah escaping in the ark, is a picture of the church, escaping in the rapture, but as we have just seen, that clearly is not the case, if one is pay attention to the text. The fact that this passage does not in any way refer to a pre-trib rapture, was pointed out by John Walvoord (you have no doubt heard of him), a long long time ago. Pre-tribbers who are well studied and trying to see what is being said, understand all of this, it is not new to them. However, they are unwilling to concede that a pre-trib rapture is never spoken of in the Bible, so they take the stand, that Matt 24 is not talking to the church nor about the rapture, the choose to divide the rapture from the second coming, and allege that Matt is for the Jews, and not intended for the church. While I think that is a mistake, I say, well fine, if that is what you want to believe, God bless you, I cannot change that. However, the OP here, asked specifically about the words "No man knows the day nor the hour" and askes "to what?" That is a legitimate question. It is common, for pre-trib rapturists, to allude to this phrase in a way, that implies that we no man will know the day or the hour, when Jesus will come, to rapture His church. There are some serious problems with that understanding. Since many pre-tribbers claim that no man know the day or the hour of the rapture, shouldn't it be their job to demonstrate, that suddenly, Jesus changed the topic, for the great tribulation and His coming to be present after that, to the rapture, in the middle of a chapter that pre-tribbers claim is not about the rapture? How is that sound exegesis? Never mind, it was a rhetorical question. In order for the phrase (no man knows) to be useful the the pre-trib position, it should be necessary to prove That when Jesus said "no man knows", what He really meant to say was that no man would ever know That when Jesus said "only the Father", the Jesus meant that He (Jesus) would also never know that the day or the hour, means not a short period of time, but that no man would even know an approximate century or millenium in which His return would take place, in spite of the fact, that He told them what to look for, so that they would know, when it was near It is so patently obvious that this 'day not hour' verse does not belong in the arsenal of texts a pre-tribber is tempted to call upon, that those who do use it, should, in my opinion, feel a little shame for being so fast and loose, and desperate, with scripture. Wouldn't it be far better, to try to make that case (per-trib) with verses that speak to that topic, instead of trying to co-opt a verse from a passage that is clearly about a post-trib parousia? I do not know, if that addresses what you were trying to ask me Marv, but I hope I at least made it clear, what my point was. if it is not so to you, likely someone will understand it. In the mean time pre-tribbers, the question of the OP, remains, the day or the hour of what? What is it, in Matt 24, that Jesus is referring to - be honest with the text, and confront what it says, and acknowledge what it does not say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 thank you Omega man for that clearing up , for those that are not understanding the question, for if they belong to one side, they would not know this question, but if they are on the other side, then they might, for we are not children of darkness that this will take us by surprise , for noah knew when this was going to happen , and lot was told prior to leaving, the scriptures ,gives us times and events, if it was not so , how would we not ! know when our lord and savior comes, but is it about the return of jesus , or something else, for many times when we read into a scripture we take a assumption of what we think it is , so would this be about the return of Christ, or would there be something else that we do not know ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 Omegaman As in the days of Noah before the flood; This same social environment exists right now. It cannot exist during the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments or Armageddon. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 Omegaman Your quote from above: Life was normal, these things had always been this way. As I said, life as normal. Then he goes on to say, that they knew nothing, until the flood came and took them away. There are two groups of people pictured here. One group or the other, or both, would be the ones who new nothing, until the flood took them away. Can we know who it was who knew nothing and was carried away in surprise? Is life normal during the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments? A Yes or No would be nice. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 Quote Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This is just an example Christ gave us. If we look deeper and know all the scriptures; The ark was Noah's salvation, for he listened to God. Today the ark is Christ. There is a storm coming, a big storm. It will be the mark of the beast. This is that flood that is coming. When this time comes we go into the ark, our vehicle for salvation which is Christ. We obey his commandments and do what he tells us to do right up to the end. We know the storm is coming, but the world who is asleep does not. They are still carrying on as normal in worldly matters, and spiritually dead. They will be carried away in the flood by being deceived. This deception will cost them their souls. So the flood is the mark of the beast and all the plagues that follow. If we are not inside the ark before this happens, we will be taken by the flood. We have to be "inside Christ" before all this starts or we will fall. Regarding the hour and the day; Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. We know the season, but not the actual hour or day. It doesn't matter anyway, for we will already be on the ark. Whether killed or in captivity we know whereabouts Christ comes according to scripture. It will be 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses are risen. We can't say when that is right now, what the hour or the day will be, but when we get to those days we will know it is soon for we are not asleep, and the world will have no idea. And if we die before then, we die knowing all of this, having died with the spirit of truth in us which can never die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 Quote Is life normal during the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments? A Yes or No would be nice. Montana Marv Jesus appears shortly after the two witnesses are killed and risen back from the dead 3 1/2 days later. The world is celebrating remember?, sending gifts to one another. How long does the world celebrate? A few days, a week? We don't know. All we know is that Christ's "appearing" is coming soon after this and during this celebration. This is when they will get a shock, during this time. Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 6 hours ago, Sister said: Montana Marv Jesus appears shortly after the two witnesses are killed and risen back from the dead 3 1/2 days later. The world is celebrating remember?, sending gifts to one another. How long does the world celebrate? A few days, a week? We don't know. All we know is that Christ's "appearing" is coming soon after this and during this celebration. This is when they will get a shock, during this time. Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Not really a good comparison. Noah was 600 years old when he and his family entered the Ark, and the door was shut. And you want to give me a 3 to 5 day window. Israel was not part of this celebration. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2015 Sister Here is a quote of yours: So the flood is the mark of the beast and all the plagues that follow. If we are not inside the ark before this happens, we will be taken by the flood. We have to be "inside Christ" before all this starts or we will fall. Boy what a great supporting quote for a Pre-Trib Doctrine. This really blows all the others out of the water. Noah was taken up on high in the Ark. Like wise we will be taken up on high at the Rapture. Thank you for your insight. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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