Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[Qnts2]

5 hours ago, Shar said:

I have heard the possibility of Chanukah as well.  I am always skeptical when historical figures make claims when He was born.  I want those issues to be proved out in Scriptures.  Maybe it is not so clear for a reason.  Is it not true that then, historically, Jews did not celebrate birthdays.  That birthdays were normally celebrations for pagan kings?

Historically, Jewish people did not celebrate birthdays.

Of course, today, many Jewish people do celebrae their birthdays.

[Shar]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

Shar, are you enjoying this dialog? this conversation seems to get further and further away from where it started. Good luck sister, you have the patience of Job. 

I appreciate the love, Spock.  Yes, I agree 

[Shar]

10 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Historically, Jewish people did not celebrate birthdays.

Of course, today, many Jewish people do celebrae their birthdays.

Thanks for confirming that.  I believe that is basis of my whole point.  Coming to the 4th cup of wine, the cup of Redemption, during His last Passover Seder,  Jesus commanded "do this in remembrance of Me".  He was exclusively speaking of this time in the Passover Seder.  Paul, in I Corinthians, advises us to keep the Passover and make sure we do it without malice in our hearts. Why would we ever want to do anything else than what our Lord commanded?  Why would we follow the mandates of mere men in history, centuries later, who switched God's festivals and Sabbaths for festivals taken from pagan worship and supported by reason of their hatred of Jews and anything Jewish? 

[Shar]

13 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

You put the emphasis on Joseph RECEIVING the ring, but this ignores that the ring did not originate with Joseph, but with Pharaoh, who was pagan, who was using a ritual that was long used in the Egyptian culture long before Joseph was even born.    The receiving doesn't change the fact that The GIVING of the ring was a pagan custom.  

You asked at the start of this exchange between us:

• would it then be OK for me to adopt a modern day Pagan celebration as long as I substitute God for Their False God in their liturgy and pray to God instead of Their False God? 

 

In your words above you said:

• Joseph, who worshipped the one true God of Israel, accepted a ring from Pharaoh as a symbol of his high office.  The prodigal son that Jesus spoke of was given a ring by his father to celebrate his returning son.  Pagans did not own the idea of giving a ring to symbolize an important event or covenant.

 

There is no mention of rings in the bible until Pharaoh gave this ring to Joseph.

Rings to mark special occasions were introduced to the Hebrews by the pagan Egyptian culture.   The use of rings to mark special occasions were an invention of the pagans.

As we move forward in scripture, there are more examples of rings in pagan cultures - and none so far in the Hebrew culture:

• Est 3:10	And the king took his ring from his hand, and gave it unto Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the Jews' enemy.
  	Est 3:12	Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors thatwere over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring.
  	Est 8:2	And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it unto Mordecai. And Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman.
  	Est 8:8	Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse.
  	Est 8:10	And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries

 

And there is never any mention of rings being used in the Hebrew culture.

The next mention of rings in the bible is in Luke:

 

• Luk 15:22	But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
  	Jas 2:2	For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

 

So now we see it incorporated as an acceptable practice in Hebrew culture.

 

But it originated with the pagans.

It is an example of a pagan practice that was given acceptable significance in Hebrew, then Christian culture.    I think scripture here answers your original question above with a "YES."

 

 

 

 

 

Quite incorrect conclusion.  Abraham's servant gave a ring to Rebekah to secure a wife for Isaac Ge.24.  This was not from a pagan.   The Jews gathered all their rings and articles of gold and made a wave offering to the Lord for the Tabernacle needs, Ex. 35.  God tells how he will take away all finery from the women of Zion, a long listing including rings, Is.4.  God speaks of how He adorned Israel with great finery and the mention of rings are included, Ez.16.

The point I have made, now for three times, is that rings were not unique to the pagan nations to mark special events.  It was practiced even before Pharaoh gave Joseph a ring.  Our forefather, Abraham, whom God referred to as His friend, practiced this.  Rings marked special events, no matter what part of the body they rested.  That is a fact.

 

 

[Qnts2]

58 minutes ago, Shar said:

Thanks for confirming that.  I believe that is basis of my whole point.  Coming to the 4th cup of wine, the cup of Redemption, during His last Passover Seder,  Jesus commanded "do this in remembrance of Me".  He was exclusively speaking of this time in the Passover Seder.  Paul, in I Corinthians, advises us to keep the Passover and make sure we do it without malice in our hearts. Why would we ever want to do anything else than what our Lord commanded?  Why would we follow the mandates of mere men in history, centuries later, who switched God's festivals and Sabbaths for festivals taken from pagan worship and supported by reason of their hatred of Jews and anything Jewish? 

For something to be pagan, it must include worship, or honor of pagan gods. Birthday celebrations are not pagan as they do not involve pagan gods. In Judaism, there was a teaching that the beginning of a persons life, we do not know what their life will be. Good or bad, filled with blessings, or tragedy. When a person dies, we know what their life was like, and what they accomplished, so that is the time to celebrate their life. If you look at Judaism, they do not ignore the date of birth as certain religious celebrations are based on a persons age. What is then celebrated are milestones, the most visible being the Bar Mitzvah.

A quick correction, it is the 3rd cup of wine which is the cup of redemption. The one immediately after dinner is the one Jesus said to do in remembrance of Him. The symbolism comes from Exodus 6.

Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, (cup 1)

and I will rid you out of their bondage, (cup 2)

and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, (cup 3)

and with great judgments:

⁷ And I will take you to me for a people, (cup 4)

and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

I believe that the cup of wine and matza is used in the church for communion. Again, the Church pulled away from Jewish practices due to anti-semitism, not paganism. I have gone to churches and presented the Passover seder, as well as other things. Since the churches have been stripped of the OT/Jewish context of some of the ceremonies, the rich symbolism of what Jesus was doing has been stripped. To be a follower of Jesus does not require an understanding of these things, but those who have come to my presentations say it has enhanced their understanding, explained some scripture more clearly, and blessed them.

God never commanded Gentiles to keep Passover in remembrance of God delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, so to make the OT Passover a regular celebration in a Church is an error. The NT Passover is in remembrance of what Jesus did, and while some is missed with Easter and communion, they are essentially the same remembrance with different names.       

 

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, Shar said:

Quite incorrect conclusion.  Abraham's servant gave a ring to Rebekah to secure a wife for Isaac Ge.24.  This was not from a pagan.   The Jews gathered all their rings and articles of gold and made a wave offering to the Lord for the Tabernacle needs, Ex. 35.  God tells how he will take away all finery from the women of Zion, a long listing including rings, Is.4.  God speaks of how He adorned Israel with great finery and the mention of rings are included, Ez.16.

The point I have made, now for three times, is that rings were not unique to the pagan nations to mark special events.  It was practiced even before Pharaoh gave Joseph a ring.  Our forefather, Abraham, whom God referred to as His friend, practiced this.  Rings marked special events, no matter what part of the body they rested.  That is a fact.

 

 

 

The search engines on bible sites have not been turning up results very well lately for me.  

Long, long before there was even an Isaac, Abraham lived in the pagan land of the Chaldeans.  It would be highly assuming to believe that the giving of rings originated with Abraham, rather than Abraham appropriating something pagan from the country he had lived in, and now giving it a holy use.

Where do you think the Jewish people got the rings of gold from?   Did  slaves own rings of gold?    No.    The Egyptians loaded the Hebrews will all sorts of precious items including jewelry.   The rings of gold came from pagans which had been put to pagan use before they ever belonged to the Hebrews.     God took the gold and jewelry that was crafted by pagans for pagans and sanctified it for the making of the Tabernacle.  

Even God does not have the problem you do of appropriating items from pagans and using them for something holy.

 

Just because there are rings in use by the Hebrew people says nothing about the origination of those practices.   You are trying very hard to negate the obvious., but you have not proven rings for special occasions were not of pagan origin.

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

For something to be pagan, it must include worship, or honor of pagan gods. Birthday celebrations are not pagan as they do not involve pagan gods. In Judaism, there was a teaching that the beginning of a persons life, we do not know what their life will be. Good or bad, filled with blessings, or tragedy. When a person dies, we know what their life was like, and what they accomplished, so that is the time to celebrate their life. If you look at Judaism, they do not ignore the date of birth as certain religious celebrations are based on a persons age. What is then celebrated are milestones, the most visible being the Bar Mitzvah.

A quick correction, it is the 3rd cup of wine which is the cup of redemption. The one immediately after dinner is the one Jesus said to do in remembrance of Him. The symbolism comes from Exodus 6.

Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, (cup 1)

and I will rid you out of their bondage, (cup 2)

and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, (cup 3)

and with great judgments:

⁷ And I will take you to me for a people, (cup 4)

and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

I believe that the cup of wine and matza is used in the church for communion. Again, the Church pulled away from Jewish practices due to anti-semitism, not paganism. I have gone to churches and presented the Passover seder, as well as other things. Since the churches have been stripped of the OT/Jewish context of some of the ceremonies, the rich symbolism of what Jesus was doing has been stripped. To be a follower of Jesus does not require an understanding of these things, but those who have come to my presentations say it has enhanced their understanding, explained some scripture more clearly, and blessed them.

God never commanded Gentiles to keep Passover in remembrance of God delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, so to make the OT Passover a regular celebration in a Church is an error. The NT Passover is in remembrance of what Jesus did, and while some is missed with Easter and communion, they are essentially the same remembrance with different names.       

 

Some understand that Jesus cut short the meal and they did not drink the 4th cup, and that "the cup" he asked the Father to let pass from him was this 4th cup which he drank from on the cross.

 

 

[Qnts2]

15 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

Some understand that Jesus cut short the meal and they did not drink the 4th cup, and that "the cup" he asked the Father to let pass from him was this 4th cup which he drank from on the cross.

 

 

If some interpret the meal that way, it is up to them. However, the 4th cup is not the cup of redemption. That is the symbolism of the 3rd cup.

The Passover seder, also called the last supper, follows fairly closely, the standard Jewish celebration. The 4 cups take their symbolism from Exodus 6, as I have quoted, so the 3rd cup is called the cup of redemption. The 3rd cup is the cup which comes immediately after the meal. The 4th cup comes a little bit later and very near the end of the seder.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

I was still attending the synagogue for about 6 months after believing in Jesus, and during that time, I attended a communal Passover seder at the synagogue. I had been thru a seder every year, but this time it was very different, as I began to see the symbolism in the seder as pointing to Jesus and used by Jesus during the last supper.

Later, when I met other Jewish believers, I found that they also saw the symbolism. I don't know of any Messianic Jews who interpret it as the 4th cup. This is the first time I have heard of that. You will find that Messianic Jews who present the Passover seder in light of Jesus, see the 3rd cup as the cup of redemption which Jesus drank and said it symbolized his blood.

Just FYI.

[Reinitin]

Depends on how you look at the old covenant and the New Covenat. The Promise to Abraham is an older covenant then the covenant with Moses. Our covenant with Christ is the grafting in to the promises to Abraham. So which is truely the old covenant? Christ was promised before the foundations of the earth were made. PI am pretty sure that is older then Moses.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Reinitin

[Shar]

4 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

For something to be pagan, it must include worship, or honor of pagan gods. Birthday celebrations are not pagan as they do not involve pagan gods. In Judaism, there was a teaching that the beginning of a persons life, we do not know what their life will be. Good or bad, filled with blessings, or tragedy. When a person dies, we know what their life was like, and what they accomplished, so that is the time to celebrate their life. If you look at Judaism, they do not ignore the date of birth as certain religious celebrations are based on a persons age. What is then celebrated are milestones, the most visible being the Bar Mitzvah.

A quick correction, it is the 3rd cup of wine which is the cup of redemption. The one immediately after dinner is the one Jesus said to do in remembrance of Him. The symbolism comes from Exodus 6.

Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, (cup 1)

and I will rid you out of their bondage, (cup 2)

and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, (cup 3)

and with great judgments:

⁷ And I will take you to me for a people, (cup 4)

and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

I believe that the cup of wine and matza is used in the church for communion. Again, the Church pulled away from Jewish practices due to anti-semitism, not paganism. I have gone to churches and presented the Passover seder, as well as other things. Since the churches have been stripped of the OT/Jewish context of some of the ceremonies, the rich symbolism of what Jesus was doing has been stripped. To be a follower of Jesus does not require an understanding of these things, but those who have come to my presentations say it has enhanced their understanding, explained some scripture more clearly, and blessed them.

God never commanded Gentiles to keep Passover in remembrance of God delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, so to make the OT Passover a regular celebration in a Church is an error. The NT Passover is in remembrance of what Jesus did, and while some is missed with Easter and communion, they are essentially the same remembrance with different names.       

 

I did say Paul told us to celebrate the Passover, but make sure we did not have malice in our hearts.  Even Paul supported it, so it is not in error to keep it.  Yes, when you do the Seder it is rich with Biblical understanding and the evidence of Messiah.  My point is not just that the Easter celebration was taken from a pagan celebration, but more that we departed from those 3 Feasts for the remembrance of His death, burial and resurrection because of anti-Semitism.  This is not a justifiable reason to adopt a different ceremony.  Hatred of Jews was the reason of the change.  Not God's command.