NO ONE KNOWS the Day or Hour, except the FATHER ?

[other one]

I'm not sure I really would want to know.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Omegaman

Since God the Father is not the Word (Logos).  One cannot find the time of the Rapture in Scripture.  Since God the Father is the only One who knows the time of the Rapture.  And Yes Jesus will know;  When God the Father says to Him that the Bride is finished and ready, go retrieve her.

But, is it not comforting to not know the day or hour for the Rapture, but only to Watch and be Ready for it.

It is kind of like a father handing over the keys to a car to a son or daughter.  They know one day it will happen, but the father is the only one who knows when it will happen.

If one must get picky;   John 1;  The Word was with God in the beginning (before ALL was created)  and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus).  What tense is this?  The Word being with God in the beginning.  Is this still true now (the Word being with God the Father), the same as in the beginning.  If so, nothing has changed between the Two.  The Word is still the Word (Jesus the Son), and God the Father is still God the Father.

Each aspect of God is/was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (forever).  The attributes of the Godhead do not change.

So if Jesus Christ (the Word) says that only God the Father knows.  There is only one thing to know:  Only God the Father knows.  To try to wiggle it into Scripture is for philosophers. But what if....   But did it really say that no one would know the time or hour or day for the Rapture, at that time, but will at a future time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying, at least some of it. Yes, the Word was with God in the beginning, and the persons of the trinity shared a devine nature. I think we are on the same page that far.

However, it is not as though nothing ever changed. First off, it is my suspicion (I won't claim certain knowledge) that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, shared the attributes of deity (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresense, etc.) We might agree there as well. 

Whether we agree there or not, if what I believe there is true, then the Word knew when Jesus would come for His bride, because He knew all things, shared with the Father in that attribute.

 In Luke 2:53 we read:

And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

That Jesus increased in wisdom, indicates to me that He was not incarnated with the full attributes of God.

In Phillip 2 we discover also that although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to cling to but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Now I would ask: "What did He empty Himself of? What did He no longer hold on to when He took the form of man?"

If I were to speculate and answer my own question, I would say He emptied Himself of His Godly attribute, while never ceasing to be God.

No longer having omnipresence for example, Jesus was not able to be everywhere at once.

No longer having omnipotence, he would say to Peter:

“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Notice that He did not say that He (Jesus) could Himself call such legions, but could appeal to the Father.

No longer having omniscience, He no longer could see everything in the future, He was now more like a prophet, able to see what God gave Him to see, and speak what God gave Him to speak.

However, whether that was the case of not, I believe the that now that He has returned to the Father, He has regained Godly attributes, but I cannot prove it. I believe He knows perfectly well, what lies ahead at this point. 

You said:

"The Word is still the Word (Jesus the Son), and God the Father is still God the Father.

Each aspect of God is/was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (forever).  The attributes of the Godhead do not change."

Now, do you really think that the attibutes of each aspect, and each member of the triniy do not change? God is Spirit. The Word, the Son, became flesh, how is that NOT a change? I already spoke of the fact that He emptied himself of something, how is that NOT a change? Clearly the Son of God changed when He became flesh, and now, He is still a man, while being God, but, His glorified body, has attributes it did not have while He lived his 3 decades + on Earth. How is that not a change.

If anyone of the things  mentioned is true, then your apparent assertion that God does not change in any way, seems unfounded.

I am glad you cleared up that you do not believe that the Father became the Word,  but it was hard to figure out, since you were the only one saying that, not one else had. I assume that just means that you do not understand what other people think, supposing that they must think that the Father became the Word. I never saw anyone say any such thing, only you. That was odd to me.

Now, since the time that Jesus ascended to Heaven, is it impossible for any knew knowledge of events to come, to be transmitted to those who would later write the New Testament? All of the New Testament, every word, was written at a later time, than when Jesus told the disciples that He did not know the time of His coming.

Speaking of that let's revisit that a little. The question He was addressing was:

 “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

He gave them not just the sign but lots of signs. He told them how to know when things were getting closer (the signs that signify the birth pains which proceed the end times).

'Coming' there, for those who are unaware, is the word parousia, in the Greek, often translated as "presence", and not without good reason. It is a word constructed from words that mean "alongside" and "I am". One cannot be alongside without being present with  them. Of course, that could me alongside in Heaven, or in the air, or on the Earth. However, parousia is not devoid of the notion of changing location,  it also contains the idea of movement to be present, or presence after movement. This is why it is sometimes translated as coming. Coming of course, is always toward the one to be in the presence of. If we had to use a single English word to use, arrival might be best, but the idea is really:

Jesus, what will be the sign of you coming to be with us?

I am not going to make a conclusion from that, I just wanted to add that to help consider what the question is, that Jesus is answering.

So, as I was saying, the question is, what is the sign. How did Jesus answer that? He gave another sign.

He said "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

That is the and answer to their question, from Jesus own lips. He also added:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory."

So, there it is the last sign, they will see the Son of Man Coming. Then, it is imminent, a blink away!

Now, here is what I wish you would really address, I have asked it, or alluded to it several times.

You keep trying to make the "no man knows the day or the hour" verse, relevant to the rapture. Why is it, that you do that, if Jesus is talking about His visible coming after the tribulation, or, to ask it another way, why do you apply it to the rapture, unless the rapture is mentioned in Matt 24?

In my opinion, you should either demonstrate where in Matt 24, the rapture is mentioned, or justify how the context indicates that Jesus switched topics suddenly in the Olivet discourse. If you cannot do that, then you really should stop imposing the pre-trib rapture into the "no man knows" verse. That is distorting, deceptive, misleading, dishonest, etc.

When we do that sort of thing, we are not only misrepresenting God's word, but we are leading others to follow in the same errors. Do we really want to do this? Think about that, think about it hard. As I said previously, if you want to believe in the pre-trib rapture, go on ahead, you can make that choice. Please though, people should reconsider if they really want to insert thir ideas into God's word, instead of letting the Bible speak for itself. 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/2/2016 at 8:47 AM, Ezra said:

Since there are ample Scriptures and parables to confirm that the Rapture is indeed unannounced and unexpected, it should be crystal clear that it is NOT the same as the Second Coming.

If that is true, you should be able to provide at least one, I have been waiting over 30 years for someone to provide one.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/2/2016 at 11:02 AM, MorningGlory said:

I AM reading, O Man, and I won't disagree this time.  Jesus said 'no one knows', not that no one would EVER know. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

20 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So MG what time from a rapturist view are we talking about ....The rapture or the 2nd coming?

MG replied: "The Rapture, of course."

 

I agree that from a rapturist point of view ( if by that we mean a pre-trib rapturists point if view ) we are talking about the rapture.

That is not the real question. The real question is, in Matt 24, what if JESUS talking about, the rapture or the second coming, and in the context to what Jesus is talking about, what in that entire monologue, is said to happen before the tribulation?

People should form their own answers, but they should get them from the text itself. There is more that one thing that He mentions that happens before the end of the tribulation (the signs of the birth pains, the appearance of the abomination of desolation).

The only coming He addresses, is visible and after the tribulation, am I wrong?

 

[MorningGlory]

12 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

MG replied: "The Rapture, of course."

 

I agree that from a rapturist point of view ( if by that we mean a pre-trib rapturists point if view ) we are talking about the rapture.

That is not the real question. The real question is, in Matt 24, what if JESUS talking about, the rapture or the second coming, and in the context to what Jesus is talking about, what in that entire monologue, is said to happen before the tribulation?

People should form their own answers, but they should get them from the text itself. There is more that one thing that He mentions that happens before the end of the tribulation (the signs of the birth pains, the appearance of the abomination of desolation).

The only coming He addresses, is visible and after the tribulation, am I wrong?

 

If we are not already in Heaven at the Second Coming, what meaning do you give verse 31?

Matthew 24King James Version (KJV)

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

² And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

³ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

³⁵ Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

³⁶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

⁴⁵ Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

⁴⁷ Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

⁴⁸ But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

⁴⁹ And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

⁵⁰ The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

⁵¹ And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Ezra]

33 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If that is true, you should be able to provide at least one, I have been waiting over 30 years for someone to provide one.

Matthew 25:1-30 should suffice.

[Omegaman 3.0]

12 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

If we are not already in Heaven at the Second Coming, what meaning do you give verse 31?

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I would probably understand that like this:

Who?

I think the 'who' would be all the saints the world over. Heaven, if you mean by that, the realm of God, I don't perceive that as having ends, it is not in dimensional space, in my view.

Heaven

Heaven, as in the sky, the air, the clouds, the place where Jesus will come, does have limits.

4 Winds

The 4 winds, likely a Hebrew parallelism, just a way of saying from every direction from around the world, the saints come to join the Lord in the air (you do not have wind without air, and the only place I feel certain that has air, is our atmosphere.

 

End of previous post. I would add though, that most pre-tribbers, consistantly hold the the elect, mentioned in Matt 24, refers ONLY to Jews, not to the church, I don't see it that way. In any case, that event is declared to be AFTER the tribulation! I see no reason in Matt 24 to conclude any coming or gathering prior to the trib, it just is not mentioned.

[MorningGlory]

22 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I would probably understand that like this:

Who?

I think the 'who' would be all the saints the world over. Heaven, if you mean by that, the realm of God, I don't perceive that as having ends, it is not in dimensional space, in my view.

Heaven

Heaven, as in the sky, the air, the clouds, the place where Jesus will come, does have limits.

4 Winds

The 4 winds, likely a Hebrew parallelism, just a way of saying from every direction from around the world, the saints come to join the Lord in the air (you do not have wind without air, and the only place I feel certain that has air, is our atmosphere.

 

End of previous post. I would add though, that most pre-tribbers, consistantly hold the the elect, mentioned in Matt 24, refers ONLY to Jews, not to the church, I don't see it that way. In any case, that event is declared to be AFTER the tribulation! I see no reason in Matt 24 to conclude any coming or gathering prior to the trib, it just is not mentioned.

I don't agree but, hey, this disagreement has been going on for about 125 years now so it probably wont be resolved today either.

[Omegaman 3.0]

12 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Matthew 25:1-30 should suffice.

Okay let me look and to save others the effort, let's get in on screen (with apologies to KJV onlyists):

Parable of Ten Virgins

      1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2“Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’7“Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9“But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10“And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11“Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13“Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Parable of the Talents

      14“For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15“To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16“Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17“In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18“But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

      19“Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20“The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

      22“Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

      24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

      26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

      29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

End of suggested passage.

Okay, the passage begins with the word "then". Therefore, the context is the previously in the same monologue (Matt 24). What just proceeded this "then"?

 48“But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So let me ask, is all of this judement talk where the wicked are being come upon unexpectedly, also pre-trib? Looks to me like this is the master coming in unexpectanlty upon unbeleivers, and Jesus says "THEN the kingdome will be like the ten virgins, some are kept out of the kingdom, and the bride is welcomed in. So when is the "Then: in Matt 24, still after the tribuation.

What makes you think that Matt 25 says something about pre-trib?

Also, I think that I would look to other passages about a wedding or marriage of the lamb. (see Rev 19). There is also seems to be post-trib.

Sorry, you will either have to do better than this, or at least let us know what is compelling in Matt 25 toward pre-tribism, you lacked specifics, I cannot read your mind, so by all means, spell it out for us so we all may understand like you do.