Daniel 8

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

William,

are you definitively saying Azazel (Apollyon from Rev 9) is the beast who many call the antichrist? 

Yes. He is an antichrist, one of many; but granted, many call the Beast "The Antichrist."

In briefest summary:

Rev. 17:7 ...the Beast that ... has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The Beast that you saw was, and is not, and

1) will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and

2) go to perdition.

Perdition, meaning "utter destruction," is the lake of fire:

Rev. 19:20 Then the Beast was captured, and ...cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Enoch 10:9 "…and in the great day of judgment let him [Azazel] be cast into the [lake of] fire.”

[Spock]

Rev 19:20 shows this beast to be one person cast into the lake of fire.  This is not a nation or an empire, but rather one person.

this beast many refer to as the antichrist. I know Rev talks about a beast empire, but the antichrist is one person. 

Do you believe he will be the face of the evil empire, much like Hitler?  Or do you believe the false prophet will be the face?  Or do you see them as equals?  It seems to me the false prophets role is to get people to now and worship the beast, the one person.  Do you think it is to now to the empire instead of one person? 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

Rev 19:20 shows this beast to be one person cast into the lake of fire.  This is not a nation or an empire, but rather one person.

this beast many refer to as the antichrist. I know Rev talks about a beast empire, but the antichrist is one person. 

Do you believe he will be the face of the evil empire, much like Hitler?  Or do you believe the false prophet will be the face?  Or do you see them as equals?  It seems to me the false prophets role is to get people to now and worship the beast, the one person.  Do you think it is to now to the empire instead of one person? 

If by person you include fallen angelic persons, then yes, the Beast is one single individual/person, as is the False Prophet.

Enoch 9:5-6 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… Semhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

Semhazai (with some variations in spelling) was the original leader of the fallen angels, when they conspired to rebel against God's heavenly order (Jude 6) by coming to earth to dominate it. However, after they came, Azazel became the more corrupted and powerful one. Just a supposition, by my belief is that Semhazai the sorceror will be the False Prophet. These are powerful beings, not mere men. They have been chained in the Abyss since the Noahic Flood (2 Peter 2:4-5), and you can bet they will ascend out of the Abyss with an attitude; and with hosts of demons. Rev. 9 tells us about the demon-"locusts" and the demon-"horsemen," and the release of the four evil "angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

This is what your Bible teaches, but what most people skate over as being too uncomfortable to talk about.

Now have a nice day.  And may you ascend in the Rapture before Rev. 9 and 13 take place, so you won't have to be around for the overwhelming nastiness of these coming days.

[Kan]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks Kan for laying this out and making it easy to understand.

my biggest problem with this is that 538 to 1798 computation. That seems to be a stretch to fit it in to someone's agenda. 1798 was not that significant.  Some pope gets arrested and removed for a short time seems pretty insignificant to me. Maybe it is not, but my gut tells me otherwise. 

Well, yes, this event has almost been obliterated from the history books, so it is insignificant, but in the past reformation days, it was taught and backed by historical records. Anything to do with the Papal reign of 1260 years has been gradually whittled away, and false prophecies about the Antichrist have replaced every true prophecy, so that people are discouraged from tracing the works of Satan throughout time, especially in our day.

The prophecy of the 1260 reign of the Antichrist, is one of nine time spans in Daniel. Three tie in the end of the 2300 years of Daniel 8, and five tie in the beginning of the 2300 period. They all belong within the 2300 days/years.

If we pull these apart or calculate these times in Daniel and Revelation in literal days and not in vision time where one day = one year, then they make no sense. There are several major reasons for this, one of which is the time of the death of the Messiah, which is incorporated into them.

The 2300 period, refers to the sanctuary in heaven, of which the earthly was a miniature replica. Daniel first thought that the prophecies had to do with the run down temple of Israel, but the angel directed his attention heavenward, where Christ would come to earth, provide the great sacrifice, and minister as the High priest in heaven for us.

The Jewish economy with its festivals all pointed to what God has provided for the world in Christ and His ministry, and it was never to leave people to imagine that an earthly priesthood is enough. And hence we have the Antichrist establishing a system of religion where people are disconnected from Christ and His sanctuary ministry. It had its own priesthood and dominated the earth in all spiritual matters.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 0:53 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock, That`s great we agree on this. I think my answer to your first question will also tell you what I believe re - the Global Leader`s extent of rule.   Now to your first question -

`Greece split into 4 regions after Alex.  Which part do you see the antichrist arising from? `

I see that God`s word tell us it is the region just north of Israel.

`At the time of the end....The king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, & with many ships; & he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, & pass through. He shall also enter the glorious Land, & many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape his hand: Edom, Moab, & the prominent people of Ammon.` (Dan. 11: 40 & 41)

The king of the North – Syria & Iraq.  (Ancient Assyria)

Jordan – Ancient names, Edom, Moab, & Ammon.

 

Thus I believe the fighting in Syria & Iraq is a prelude to the Moslem leader arising there. So many warring factions there – Syrian army, anti Syrian groups, also Kurds, Iraq people & Islamic state. There will come on to the scene (in the next few years) a cunning person who will successfully transform this volatile Middle East into a `peaceful region.`

`And in the latter time of their (Greek) kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king... shall stand up

• of fierce countenance,

• & understands dark trickery & craftiness....

Through his policy  

• He shall cause trickery to prosper in his hand;

• he shall magnify himself in his heart & mind,

• & in their security he will corrupt & destroy many.... ` (Dan. 8: 23 & 25  AMP)

 

He will arise regionally first, then to national & international acclaim in the tribulation. So, .....after a period of `peace,` God brings Russia (& its federation etc) down to the mountains of Israel & judges them there.

 Then after the almost complete annihilation of the Russian Army the world will demand cessation of all conflict. Into this situation a seemingly benevolent leader will convince everyone that he has the solution for every international problem. As confirmation of his capabilities, he will cite the successful transformation of the previous volatile Middle East. Further he will negotiate & conclude a seven year peace treaty with the nation of Israel.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi Spock,

Just posted this again in case you missed it. No hurry, but was wondering what you think.

Marilyn.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Spock,

15 hours ago, Spock said:

just to be clear, do you not see the antichrist in this passage from Daniel 8?  And if not, who do you see this person? Thanks.

23“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

My understanding is that the little horn of the goat is a military power and the same as the latter day king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. The antichrist is a religious power and is a different development than Daniel 8. The antichrist  originates in a falling away from the faith, an apostasy, and has been manifested in the Roman Catholic system. They will oppose Christ when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. This system is depicted by the little horn of Daniel 7 and man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the development mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Sister]

On 27/1/2016 at 9:54 AM, Sister said:

Spock

There's another clue in a different scripture, but I can't find it right now.  Will keep looking.

Hi Spock

I just found that scripture I was looking for;

Ezekiel 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, WHEN INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END.

 

Ezekiel 21:27   I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Spock,

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 3:16 PM, TrevorL said:

I believe that Jesus is alluding to Daniel 8:13-14 in Luke 21:24.

After reviewing this thread I decided to expand on a few details including my previous comment above. I believe that a proper consideration of Jesus’ allusion or quotation helps to establish a better understanding of Daniel 8. I would also like to reaffirm my belief that the little horn of the goat is primarily or initially the pagan Roman Empire in its military aspect and not Antiochus Epiphanes and that the 2300 evening / mornings does not primarily refer to his desolation of the Temple for 1150 days. What happened with Antiochus was only a partial, tentative fulfillment.

The allusion or quotation is not altogether clear at first reading:
Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now there are a number of terms that are similar, and there are others that despite their similarity have some difference in meaning or range. I would like to suggest first that Luke 21:20-24 is speaking of the events of AD70 and this is fixed firstly by v20, but especially by v24 which speaks of the captivity of the Jews and their dispersion into all nations and that after this event Jerusalem was to be trodden down of the Gentiles for a long period of time, culminating at the end of “the times of the Gentiles”.

If we also add Matthew’s account, then some of the differences in terms will be clarified:
Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Now Matthew speaks of “when ye see” “the abomination of desolation” “stand in the holy place”, while Luke interprets or records this as “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies”. Significantly Matthew states that this is prophesied by Daniel, and thus the abomination of desolation of Daniel 8 and 9 is the Roman army besieging and making desolate Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, slaying many of the Jews and taking many others captive and removing them from Judea into all nations.

Now Luke tells us that this would be the start of a long period, during which Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles, and this down-treading would only end when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This fixes the meaning of this prophecy as both AD 70 and the long period of “treading down” since AD 70 verifies. Firstly what does the term of “treading down” imply? This seems to imply subjugation by a military power, and this is usually followed by political subjugation, and sometimes religious subjugation.

There does not seem to be an equivalence between the 2300 days or years and the expression “the times of the Gentiles”. I believe that of “the times of the Gentiles” is a larger period of time, commencing with the first Babylonian captivity and ending with the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth at the return of Jesus Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14. The Kingdom of Babylon overthrew the Kingdom of God when Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem and this was the time when Daniel was taken into captivity. The 2300 years from BC 334-33 to AD 1967 is a shorter time period, starting with Alexander’s conquest of Medo-Persia, the goat vs the ram, and the period speaks of the Greco-Roman dominance over Judea and Jerusalem. Jerusalem is yet to suffer another invasion from the north as depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 and Ezekiel 38, and on this occasion Jesus will intervene and overthrow the kingdoms of men and establish the Kingdom of God, reigning from Jerusalem on the throne of David. The present distress in the Middle East and Syria could be precursors to the invasion from the north depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 and other parallel prophecies such as Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16:12-16.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Edited February 6, 2016 by TrevorL

[Kan]

On 2/1/2016 at 2:49 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Spock,

My understanding is that the little horn of the goat is a military power and the same as the latter day king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. The antichrist is a religious power and is a different development than Daniel 8. The antichrist  originates in a falling away from the faith, an apostasy, and has been manifested in the Roman Catholic system. They will oppose Christ when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. This system is depicted by the little horn of Daniel 7 and man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the development mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19.

Kind regards
Trevor

The little horn of Daniel 8 is pictured as growing, changing, and lasting until the end. The Roman empire did not begin to take over the known world through massive campaigns, but little by little it succeeded in extending its power and territory, through numerous smaller battles which the rest of the world did not consider was the style of conquering the world, and yet it did. 

We note that, the spiritual aspects of this power are brought to view by the expressions concerning the battle in heaven, and casting down of the the stars, as in Revelation 12. This tells us that Satan, the great dragon, is behind the kingdoms of this world, with his aim to control the people, and especially to curb the activities of the Christ to come.

After the failure to conquer Christ, he turns his attention to the church, and here the corruption begins in the world of Christianity, part of which apostatized and became the persecuting power of the Roman church, as you have pointed out. This power would also go through changes, but it would last until the end.

From this I see that the little horn is the same work of Satan, from its military beginning until its spiritual ending as the Antichrist, but always with the same intent, to war against the truth etc. 

It is a different development, as you said, and I hope you see it as the same power in different forms.

[Spock]

On February 1, 2016 at 11:49 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Spock,

My understanding is that the little horn of the goat is a military power and the same as the latter day king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. The antichrist is a religious power and is a different development than Daniel 8. The antichrist  originates in a falling away from the faith, an apostasy, and has been manifested in the Roman Catholic system. They will oppose Christ when he comes to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. This system is depicted by the little horn of Daniel 7 and man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the development mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor,

i think you are looking to deeply into this passage. This is about one man, a very intriguing man, who will have the world eating out of the palm of his hands.....at first. 

He will help people feel hopeful again and should be instrumental in bringing about a temporary peace in the Middle East. This will lead to a rebuilt temple on the mount.

then of course, the abomination thing takes place in the middle of Daniels 70 week, which leads to the great tribulation. This leads to some Christian persecution follows by the rapture and then follows by the day of the lord. Hello trumpet judgments.