The Mark and the Image

[other one]

The story about the birthday is not reality concerning this scripture.  I've checked it on three programs and asked an acquaintance who worked at JPL if they were correct.  The Rev scripture has never happened before.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

I know I'm going to get reprimanded if I say it...trying not to...struggling for composure...no strength... can't fight it.....

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. There...I said it.

Rev 12:1-2 is nothing more than a identifier. Rev 12:1-5 clearly identifies the two principles and sets the context so there is no mistake. It's a quick overview of 2000 years of struggle. It shows the birthplace of the Messiah. It shows the great animosity between Satan and the people of God, it shows the rebellion of the angels, the ascendance of Christ. But it  does not liken this sign to a freakin planetary alignment, in an astrological sign no less. As if God is going to share the glory with man made constellations.

This is what is wrong with the christian church. itching ears. Lusting after a sign. An evil generation seeks after a sign, and the christian church leads the way in this. You all need to repent of this kind of garbage before the beast arrives to test the people of God. 

Actually, it is more than you say. It is the exact picture of Virgo in Sept (I forget the day and hour) in 2 BC -  the year Christ was born. She is "clothed in the sun" and the moon is at her feet. And three planets are in the area of her crown. 

I can only tell you what God spoke to me: "Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

What is coming up this years is NOT a duplicate of what happened in 2 BC in Virgo.

[other one]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Actually, it is more than you say. It is the exact picture of Virgo in Sept (I forget the day and hour) in 2 BC -  the year Christ was born. She is "clothed in the sun" and the moon is at her feet. And three planets are in the area of her crown. 

I can only tell you what God spoke to me: "Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

What is coming up this years is NOT a duplicate of what happened in 2 BC in Virgo.

I think you should look at that for yourself and not take someone's word for it....

The Sun has to be over the shoulder of Virgo with the Moon under her feet....

Three planets have to be within LEO to make up the 12 stars and Jupiter the king star must be between her legs as being born.

That is simply not the case on the program on my desktop nor a different program on my tablet... 

The date that is supposed to be Jesus's birthday is September 11, 3 BC according to Luke.   

I have run the sky programs for hours and hours and can not get moon - sun -  planets - and Jupiter in that formation.

So unless you can give me a time to look, I simply can not agree with you here.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe preconceived glasses are in your way. Where do I get this? Try reading Rev. 5 without preconceptions!  What is written? John turned and saw a lamb having been slain. That lamb was not there before. The lamb is of course Jesus Christ, and He was not there before, not in chapter 4 and not until this verse in chapter 5. In other words, He JUST ARRIVED in heaven. But that cannot be known. The time of Jesus arrival in heaven is not specified in this vision. In fact many years before Jesus already ascended to the Father. What did He tell Mary?

John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

This is telling us, as soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended.  Later Jesus told Thomas to touch him, so we see He had already ascended. John got to see His arrival in heaven, in a vision of the past. So according to your own words Jesus had ascended long before the vision of John. First you say the Lamb just arrived in heaven and now you say its a vision of the past. Where in scripture are we told this is a vision of the past? I'm not saying it could not be but what evidence exists as proof?

 

You think, NO WAY because of he word "hereafter."

 

 

Revelation 1:19

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Here Jesus is telling John to write things past, present AND future. And John does exactly that.

Here there is an error in logic in the above. The overall gist is also lost, I should have brought this up before.  In Rev 1:19 Jesus clearly tells John to write the the present and future. Does Jesus tell John to write about the past as well? I don't know about that. What is the context of "..things which thou hast seen..."? Is it the past from the birth of John? From when John met Jesus? From the beginning of time? Or the things which John has seen in the vision? Since the only context we have is the vision, Rev 1:1 " The Revelation of Jesus Christ," we should never add or change context willy nilly. You do realize that John had the vision before he wrote it down? Or are we to assume he was writing as he was watching the vision unfold? Since the only context we have is the Revelation of Jesus, then it makes sense that "..the things which thou hast seen..." are just those things contained in the vision. Do you get that? If a person sees a deer run across the road, it is a past event within seconds, and the person 'saw' the deer. In the same way John saw the vision and then wrote, "...things which thou hast seen...".

Rev. 4:1 ... and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

Well, DID Jesus show John things which "must be hereafter?" Of course He did! These words would not preclude Jesus from mixing some HISTORY in with future events.  many people think they read "ONLY things hereafter." Sorry, but only is not in that verse. Correct. However Jesus differentiates between the ideas from Rev 1 to Rev 4. Notice how Jesus says, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" in Rev 1, but says only 'hereafter' in Rev 4. This is change of context by Jesus himself. One cannot ignore these nuances, they make all the difference in understanding the text. Paying close attention to the context as presented leads to correct understanding. As a bit of logic, I wonder how a future telling can be past, present, and future? Have you seen that in another prophecy anywhere in the bible? If not then it should not be assumed to occur in Rev.

Sorry, but only is not in that verse. In fact, most people recognize that when Satan was cast out of heaven and took 1/3 of the angels with him, that is history written in Rev. 12.  Most people do not yet recognize Rev. 4 & 5 as history. .There's too much in these 5 verses to get into here. I don't see it as a history lesson but simply identification so there is no mistakes about who, what, when, and where.

By the way, I did not get this by rationalization: I got it by meditating on the Word and praying in the spirit, waiting on God to teach me. I know, these days it is not a common way to learn. Most people will not take the time necessary and are unwilling to wait on God to answer. Maybe I should have started here. You did indeed rationalize that because you meditated and prayed that you got the answer you desired, and that answer is truth. If you didn't do the leg work then you have not the truth. I guess that's why you don't offer up scripture in defense of your position.

If the last week was to be a week of years, 7 years, then your idea of timing is way off if it's to be understood the seals are within the 70th week.  

That is the very point of chapters 4 & 5: to show us the first seals are NOT IN the 70th week. Most people do not understand that God MARKED the 70th week with 7's.  Consider the 5th seal: they are church age martyrs. NOT 70th week or Day of the Lord martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait for the rest of the 7 years. But since they are church age martyrs, they have no idea how long the church age would last. So they asked. Absolutely wrong.  While the premise could be correct it's not axiomatic, you have no proof of this. If they are 70th week martyrs, and they are, they have no idea when the Lord returns as spoken by the Lord in Matt 24. As the Lord returns before the end of the last week to redeem the dead in Christ and gather those who are left alive, the question of the souls under the altar is valid.

Where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus began opening seals the moment he ascended?

Just READ! You cannot find 2ooo years anywhere between when Jesus suddenly appeared (as the lamb slain) and chapter 6:1. What we do read is that as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, He went straight to the Father and got the book and began breaking the seals. There is NO HINT of a wait. Not until the 5th seal do we see a time of waiting. And we have been waiting between the 5th and 6h all this time, waiting on the rapture and the 6th seal to begin the DAY of the Lord. Oh, so you're a pretribber? 

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Actually, it is more than you say. It is the exact picture of Virgo in Sept (I forget the day and hour) in 2 BC -  the year Christ was born. She is "clothed in the sun" and the moon is at her feet. And three planets are in the area of her crown. 

I can only tell you what God spoke to me: "Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John." Claiming special knowledge? That's the purview of cult leaders, tyrants and the manipulative. 

What is coming up this years is NOT a duplicate of what happened in 2 BC in Virgo.

 

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, other one said:

I think you should look at that for yourself and not take someone's word for it....

The Sun has to be over the shoulder of Virgo with the Moon under her feet....

Three planets have to be within LEO to make up the 12 stars and Jupiter the king star must be between her legs as being born.

That is simply not the case on the program on my desktop nor a different program on my tablet... 

The date that is supposed to be Jesus's birthday is September 11, 3 BC according to Luke.   

I have run the sky programs for hours and hours and can not get moon - sun -  planets - and Jupiter in that formation.

So unless you can give me a time to look, I simply can not agree with you here.

It is in 2 BC, but for the programs, they will say 1 BC because of no 0 year.  Yes, I found that exact picture. And it is in 2 BC. The stars will not lie to us.  I found it again: 09/01/1 BC at 1500 hours on Stellarium. I have not looked at others to see if they agree.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Diaste said:

Claiming special knowledge? That's the purview of cult leaders, tyrants and the manipulative. 

Where is your bible knowledge? Have you not read?

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

We as His children are SUPPOSE to hear His voice.  What is weird is when believers DON'T hear His voice.  How do you suppose Paul got all His revelation knowledge? He heard from heaven. Have you not read of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others in the Old Testament that heard from God?  Did you not read that Elijah was a man just like us with human weaknesses?  Yet He heard from God. So the TRUTH is, hearing from God is the purview of TRUE BELIEVERS.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, other one said:

Fortunately for you, we can all express our opinions here.

Unfortunately for you, that doesn't necessarily mean that thought is right.   So, we wait till the end of this year and see what happens.. BTW Genesis tells us that the stars are there for signs.....I guess we can wait till December or so and finish our discussion. 

Doesn't make it wrong either. I don't see where Genesis talks about stars for signs. I did three searches and nothing came up. And even if the Sept 23 thing is valid, what is it supposed to mean?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 But that cannot be known. The time of Jesus arrival in heaven is not specified in this vision. In fact many years before Jesus already ascended to the Father. 

It CAN be known in relationship to other events, such as Jesus telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.  And in general it can be known because we know He died around 32 or 33 AD. It can be known in relation to the infant church. He Breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit" and they were born again at that instant. That is what the first seal is about: the infant church sent out to make disciples of every nation.

 So according to your own words Jesus had ascended long before the vision of John. First you say the Lamb just arrived in heaven and now you say its a vision of the past. Where in scripture are we told this is a vision of the past? I'm not saying it could not be but what evidence exists as proof?

Yes, John saw this vision around 95 AD according to church tradition. Jesus ascended around 32 AD. So this is a vision of the PAST.  The evidence is what is written:

1. Jesus was NOT AT the right hand of the Father in chapter 4, where He WOULD BE if it was 95 AD in the vision. We have a dozen verses telling us that is where Jesus went to be.

2. The Holy Spirit WAS there in chapter 4

2. NO MAN FOUND in the first search John watched that ended in failure.

Just so you know, I did not know any of this. I got stuck on John weeping and began to bug God about that.  First He said "it shows timing." I could not find timing so kept bugging Him.

Next He said, "it also shows the movement of time," but I could not see any movement of time. I was VERY SLOW. Finally, He had compassion on me and asked me these three questions. I did not word them as questions, but He did. I could not answer them, not even one of them. As I said, I was SLOW.

Finally, God took me to chapter 12 to answer these three questions. What did He teach me about chapter 12? That verses 1-5 were written as a parenthesis and were a "history lesson" to John, being about Christ's birth and how the dragon tried to kill him as a child.

With "history lesson" on my mind, suddenly I had the answer to all three questions.  Christ was NOT at the Father's right hand, because He was still on earth or under the earth. "No man was found" because Christ had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy. And finally, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room because Christ had not yet ascended to send Him down. So I finally got it, but this took weeks of intensive study and meditating on these verses. Again, I am embarrassed at how slow I was to get it. Now I can see timing and I can also see the movement of time.

Edited February 27, 2017 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Where is your bible knowledge? Have you not read?

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

We as His children are SUPPOSE to hear His voice.  What is weird is when believers DON'T hear His voice.  How do you suppose Paul got all His revelation knowledge? He heard from heaven. Have you not read of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others in the Old Testament that heard from God?  Did you not read that Elijah was a man just like us with human weaknesses?  Yet He heard from God. So the TRUTH is, hearing from God is the purview of TRUE BELIEVERS.

Of course. But that Word from God was accompanied by power and physical signs. They didn't just say they heard a voice, and it was God, therefore what they said was the truth. God confirmed that word with two or three witnesses in the form of exercising His power on earth. In like manner, at this time, a word from the Lord must be confirmed in some manner. Generally from the study of scripture. Look at this. 2 Thess 2:2, " That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."  Paul is saying not to believe a spirit nor a personal word.  And v 3, " Let no man deceive you by any means..." Sooo... I guess there needs to be confirmation through the authority of scripture and the apostles concerning any word we hear from another person. Since your presentation lacks such scriptural evidence it is not to be taken seriously.