A different way to look at Revelation

[simplejeff]

51 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Think about this a moment. The whole world is taken in by this beast. Skeptics, atheists, religions of every kind... except for those filled with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 24:24)... all WORSHIPING this guy. What could so convince these many many many people?

Answer: a man who can scientifically prove he lived 2000 years ago and is back from the dead. Blood tests, DNA, something. Would this not impact the whole world and would it not lend credence to this guy's claims of deity?

 

What could convince /deceive the whole world ? 

51 minutes ago, JohnD said:

John 5:43 (AV)

43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

As Jesus said 2000 years ago - it was already at work, it is not something new.  It is a whole system all around us , pernicious society.

 

13 minutes ago, JohnD said:

. I am no fan of Roman Catholicism. But I am not willing to join the long line of Protestants and martyrs who blamed it for everything that ever went wrong with everything...

Some suggest the antichrist may rise up through RCC ranks... but I don't even see this myself... but that's okay.

Not necessary.  The doctrines and practices in print are a death sentence to all who accept them , even quietly.  

By Grace in Jesus, a few are saved out from sin, whether member of a group or not.

When He saves someone, they become part of His Body on earth and reject all wickedness - Jesus guards and keeps us from the wicked one, safe from what  deceives the whole world.

[JohnD]

The dragon has seven heads does he not?

This one ultimate / final / go for broke scenario at the end of time is not the only antichrist situation setting in history.

There have been many antichrists in history but there is one ultimate antichrist who will return in the end to deceive many. 

Off the top of my head...

• Nymrod
• Antiochus Epiphanes
• Pharaoh Ramses 
• Haman
• Hitler
• Nero
• Nebuchadnezzar
• Sargon

 

[JohnD]

Revelation 12 (NASB95)

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Genesis 37:9-10

2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Isaiah 7:14

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

Revelation 20:2 / Revelation 17:9-10

4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

Isaiah 14:13-14 / Matthew 2:16-18

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Isaiah 9:6 / Acts 1:9-11 / Hebrews 8:1

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Matthew 24:15-28 / Daniel 7:24-25 , Daniel 12:7 , Revelation 12:14 / Revelation 11:2 ,  Revelation 13:5 / Revelation 11:3

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

Daniel 10:13, Daniel 10:20 / Ephesians 6:12 / Jude 9 /

8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Luke 10:18

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[more when time allows]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12 “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

[Serving]

Quote

Solomon's claims to fame are wisdom, understanding, riches, and being the first Temple builder. A thing that God did not command him to do. When God specifically told David (who had the notion first) not to build the Temple, God spoke of AN heir to David who would build the Temple, which David interpreted to mean his immediate next heir Solomon.

That is incorrect brother .. David indeed knew what God meant .. start at verse 5 instead :

1 Chronicles 22:5-13

5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

6 Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel.

7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:

8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.

12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

13 Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.

 

Solomon was a 'type' or 'shadow' of Him who was to come much later, the Lord the Christ .. like the bondwoman & the freewoman examples, the physical & the spiritual covenants, Solomon was of the bondwoman example, where sin is present .. Christ of the freewoman example .. where perfection is present .. now this makes sense too :

 

2 Samuel 7:12–17 (AV)

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

God foreknew that Jesus would NEVER sin, indeed, Jesus literally could NOT sin, it is impossible seeing that Christ is the Word of God and WAS that same Word even before the world was and who He still is even now.

Now this thing you mentioned likewise becomes clear :

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That has nothing to do with this : "If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:"

Taking upon Himself the sins of the world WHEN he was NAILED to the CROSS does not correlate with "if he commit iniquity" .. indeed, if He committed iniquity, how could He be foreordained  as the unblemished sacrificial Lamb without spot (without sin)?

That "If he commit iniquity" was about Solomon and not about the Christ now 1 Chronicles has been confirmed.

Cheers.

[JohnD]

Um... all "David said" correct?

[JohnD]

David said the Lord denied him to build the Temple because he shed blood.

All scripture records is God said "you are not the one to build a house for my name."

What David said and interpreted are in scripture as historic record. This does not make what David said and interpreted the actual truth.

 

[JohnD]

Jeremiah 24 (AV)

1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

Jeremiah 25 (AV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon;

2 The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying,

3 From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye have not hearkened.

4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.

14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

17 Then took I the cup at the LORD’S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:

18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people;

20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod,

21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon,

22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,

23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners,

24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,

25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,

26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.

35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.

36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.

37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

 

[Paradigm]

I have always been fascinated with this book. I would like to propose some questions to ponder. 

Do you think Revelation is chronological?

Do you think it is past, present, future or all of the above.

What time zone is the perspective of Revelation.

Is the book linear, cyclical or both?