pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Kan]

On 4/21/2016 at 1:47 AM, coheir said:

can some one explain this please

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

if I read this right the body we live in on earth will not be our body forever

It's talking about inheritance, not whether flesh and blood can enter. You cannot inherit heaven like the Jews thought, by being born a Jew.

Otherwise there will be obvious contradictions in scripture.

[Serving]

5 hours ago, Kan said:

It's talking about inheritance, not whether flesh and blood can enter. You cannot inherit heaven like the Jews thought, by being born a Jew.

Otherwise there will be obvious contradictions in scripture.

Yes it's talking about inheritance, but every inheritance comes with terms, and before any access to the testators estate can be granted, the testator must first die.

"Flesh and blood can not enter" is the first term required to be met before being eligible for the actual inheritance which inheritance in this case is the : "The Kingdom of God".

Flesh and blood does not describe "Jews", "Jews" describes "Jews" .. "flesh and blood" is a condition and so comes under the "terms" of the testament to be met, that is, "flesh and blood can not enter". 

And since we are all flesh and blood, then the only way to meet that requirement is being flesh and blood no more, and God only ever speaks of two conditions within His creation, one is mortal which is made up of flesh and blood, and the other is spirit, which is opposite to "flesh and blood". 

So to me, it most definitely speaks of being changed into spirit to meet the terms laid out before becoming "eligible" for the inheritance mentioned.

[Serving]

8 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

I see your point but I don't agree.  Man will be resurrected bodily and nowhere in Scripture is it stated that only spirit lives again. At least one of those I mentioned didn't die again, for sure, and we have no proof that any of the others did either. 

That's okay but let me point out that I certainly agree that One of those you mentioned definitely did not die again, no argument there. 

But let me clear up what I actually said concerning this statement : "nowhere in Scripture is it stated that only spirit lives again." .. I didn't say that, because you certainly gave examples where flesh did indeed live again, but that wasn't my argument,  here is what I said,   that word "resurrected", which, again, is only reserved to explain those who become immortal 

So my argument was about the use of "resurrection" and how it appears to me to be reserved for a set day whose result to those found accepted is to be "resurrected" into a state of eternal life. 

Having said that, there is to come a day where all will be resurrected for judgement (who did not partake in the first resurrection), both good and bad, but the difference in those examples is that the resurrected "bad" are denied that eternal life the resurrection promises, so they do get resurrected, but the reward/inheritance is what is denied which leads to the consequence of that denial .. "thrown alive into the lake of fire" 

Some examples for resurrection :

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 5:27-29

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Which is the main part of my point, that the use of "resurrection" is only ever used to describe two set aside and "allotted" days, one day occurs when Christ returns, the other occurring at some point after the millennium before the new heavens and new earth are made .. there are many more examples as I'm sure you're aware which all relate to each other.

Anyways, was just making myself clearer .. 

[Kan]

5 hours ago, Serving said:

Yes it's talking about inheritance, but every inheritance comes with terms, and before any access to the testators estate can be granted, the testator must first die.

"Flesh and blood can not enter" is the first term required to be met before being eligible for the actual inheritance which inheritance in this case is the : "The Kingdom of God".

Flesh and blood does not describe "Jews", "Jews" describes "Jews" .. "flesh and blood" is a condition and so comes under the "terms" of the testament to be met, that is, "flesh and blood can not enter". 

And since we are all flesh and blood, then the only way to meet that requirement is being flesh and blood no more, and God only ever speaks of two conditions within His creation, one is mortal which is made up of flesh and blood, and the other is spirit, which is opposite to "flesh and blood". 

So to me, it most definitely speaks of being changed into spirit to meet the terms laid out before becoming "eligible" for the inheritance mentioned.

It does not matter if an inheritance comes with terms and what those terms are, it says that you cannot get to heaven through inheritance. Getting to heaven has nothing to do with inheritance. 

Did I say, that flesh and blood describes Jews? I said nothing of it, so what are you talking about? The terms of inheritance are not even addressed in this text, because it isn't talking about the conditions of inheritance, but the conditions of entry to heaven, and that inheritance is not one of them.

You talk about types of human existence, - one of flesh and blood the other some kind of 'disembodied entity,' which you believe to be a 'spirit' of some sort. 

So with the theory of the 'rapture' what goes up to heaven, real people or a 'disembodied spirit' ?

[Serving]

6 hours ago, Kan said:

It does not matter if an inheritance comes with terms and what those terms are, it says that you cannot get to heaven through inheritance. Getting to heaven has nothing to do with inheritance. Did I say, that flesh and blood describes Jews? I said nothing of it, so what are you talking about?

The terms of inheritance are not even addressed in this text, because it isn't talking about the conditions of inheritance, but the conditions of entry to heaven, and that inheritance is not one of them.

Oh yeah, sorry, forgot to edit the Jews bit, what you read was just me framing my unfinished thoughts on paper .. oops.

Anyway, what you're saying doesn't make sense at all, it clearly states that "flesh & blood can not inherit the kingdom of God", that is a requirement no matter what you might think .. every testament has terms/requirements, "flesh and blood can not enter" is but ONE term/requirement out of many, so ONE term was most definitely mentioned regardless of what you think it says .. we've all filled out paper work, dealt with late notice bills etc, so how you can deny that what we are dealing with here is a term/requirement is mind boggling .. especially in this day and age of "cross your I's and T your t's".

Quote

You talk about types of human existence, 

 

NO I don't, I'm only paraphrasing what the bible says about it, that there is (1) the human condition, and there is (2) the spirit condition .. It's covered in the scriptures dude.

Quote

- one of flesh and blood the other some kind of 'disembodied entity,'

What is it with this "disembodied entity" thing that has crept into the pshycs of modern Christians?? Where does that even come from? Hollywood movies??

What does scripture say : 

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Are you saying that God is just some "disembodied entity" are you? Disprove God is a spirit and you will have a point, otherwise, your line of thinking is not in line with the scriptures at all on this matter.

Quote

which you believe to be a 'spirit' of some sort. 

Again, the scriptures explain the difference between flesh and blood opposed to spirit .. not me, I'm just paraphrasing, this has got nothing to do with me .. it's about the scriptures. I can't comprehend how you've missed it ?

Quote

So with the theory of the 'rapture' what goes up to heaven, real people or a 'disembodied spirit' ?

Again with this "disembodied spirit" thing, reinforcing error never makes it right dude, again, "God is a SPIRIT" .. you got a problem with Spirit having bodies, then I suggest you read descriptions of the Father, of Jesus and the angels and you will see how nonsensical your objections are to spirit having bodies.

BTW, you do know that we are made in God's image right? You know, 2 arms, 2 legs, head neck & shoulders right !!!! Don't you think that's telling us something in regards to "God is a spirit" and this "disembodied entity" argument or is it a subtle mockery designed to discredit ?? 

Please, look at what you're saying and think on this truth :

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

This hostility towards their being spirit beings is in line with the Saducees line of thought .. which we are told is wrong.

[Kan]

6 hours ago, Serving said:

Oh yeah, sorry, forgot to edit the Jews bit, what you read was just me framing my unfinished thoughts on paper .. oops.

Anyway, what you're saying doesn't make sense at all, it clearly states that "flesh & blood can not inherit the kingdom of God", that is a requirement no matter what you might think .. every testament has terms/requirements, "flesh and blood can not enter" is but ONE term/requirement out of many, so ONE term was most definitely mentioned regardless of what you think it says .. we've all filled out paper work, dealt with late notice bills etc, so how you can deny that what we are dealing with here is a term/requirement is mind boggling .. especially in this day and age of "cross your I's and T your t's".

NO I don't, I'm only paraphrasing what the bible says about it, that there is (1) the human condition, and there is (2) the spirit condition .. It's covered in the scriptures dude.

What is it with this "disembodied entity" thing that has crept into the pshycs of modern Christians?? Where does that even come from? Hollywood movies??

What does scripture say : 

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Are you saying that God is just some "disembodied entity" are you? Disprove God is a spirit and you will have a point, otherwise, your line of thinking is not in line with the scriptures at all on this matter.

Again, the scriptures explain the difference between flesh and blood opposed to spirit .. not me, I'm just paraphrasing, this has got nothing to do with me .. it's about the scriptures. I can't comprehend how you've missed it ?

Again with this "disembodied spirit" thing, reinforcing error never makes it right dude, again, "God is a SPIRIT" .. you got a problem with Spirit having bodies, then I suggest you read descriptions of the Father, of Jesus and the angels and you will see how nonsensical your objections are to spirit having bodies.

BTW, you do know that we are made in God's image right? You know, 2 arms, 2 legs, head neck & shoulders right !!!! Don't you think that's telling us something in regards to "God is a spirit" and this "disembodied entity" argument or is it a subtle mockery designed to discredit ?? 

Please, look at what you're saying and think on this truth :

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

This hostility towards their being spirit beings is in line with the Saducees line of thought .. which we are told is wrong.

You explained that well, thank you. Sorry for putting you into the ghost bag. I did not know you had a completely different idea which is in line with the Bible.

[HAZARD]

THE RAPTURE WILL BE PRE-TRIB, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ OR BE LEFT BEHIND AS A DISBELIEVER.

For those who may have missed this or not read the full thread. Here is what is written in Scripture about the coming of our Lord Jesus to take those in Him out of the earth BEFORE the coming tribulation. He does not come directly to the earth at this time but meets His people IN THE AIR. They will return with Him at His second coming to overthrow the antichrist and usher in the Millennium.

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

 

Daniel’s 70 Weeks (Dan. 9:24-27) - The expression “70 weeks’ literally means 70 sevens of years. If days were meant it would be so expressed, as in Dan. 10:3. Daniel’s prayer, to which this vision was an answer, did not concern days, but years (Dan. 9:2). Also, we know from Scripture that the last week (Dan. 9:27) is divided into two parts of 3½ years each (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 11:2-3; 12:5, 14; 13:5). The whole period of 490 years is marked off from all other years and concern only “thy people [Israel] and thy holy city [Jerusalem],” for which Daniel was praying (Dan. 6:10; 9:1-23). There are six prophetic events to take place during these 490 years relative to Israel and Jerusalem, for six purposes:

1. To Finish the Transgression - The Hebrew word for “transgression” here is pasha`. It means “to revolt, rebel, or sin against lawful authority.” It is often translated “transgression” (Ps. 51:13; Isa. 43:27). This transgression has reference to Israel in her rebellion against God. This prophecy foretells the culmination of that rebellion. The law was added because of transgression until the Seed should come, and it served as a schoolmaster to lead Israel to Christ (Gal. 3:17-25). Israel failed to receive their Messiah so they were broken off in unbelief from God’s favor as a nation. They will not be received again fully until the Second Coming of Christ, who will “turn ungodliness from Jacob” and cause a nation to be born again at once (Rom. 11:25-29; Isa. 66:7-10; Ezek. 36:24-30; Zech. 12:10–13:1).

2. To Make an End of Sins - Israel’s sins, if collected as concrete matter, would fill the earth. She has been in rebellion against God from her beginning and she will continue in this state until the fulfillment of this prophecy at the return of Christ. This “end of sins” will not be made until after the tribulation, but from that time on Israel will obey God forever (Ezek. 36:24-30; 37:24-27; 43:7; Zech. 14:1-21).

3. To Make Atonement for Iniquity - The Hebrew word for “iniquity” is `avon and means “perverseness, to be crooked, or wrung out of course” (1 Sam. 20:30; 2 Sam. 19:19; Job 33:33). Atonement was made on the cross for the whole world, but Israel as a nation has not yet appropriated its benefits and won’t do so until Christ’s return (Zech. 13:1-7; Rom. 11:25-27; Isa. 66:7-8).

4. To Bring in Everlasting Righteousness - When the transgression has been finished, an end of sins made, and the full benefits of the atonement will have been realized by Israel, then everlasting righteousness will be ushered in (Isa. 9:6-7; 12:1-6; Dan. 7:13-14, 18, 27; Mt. 25:31-46; Ezek. 43:7; Rom. 11:25-29).

5. To Seal up the Vision and Prophecy - This means to make an end of certain prophecies concerning Israel and Jerusalem. The word “prophecy” should be translated “prophet,” as elsewhere. It means that there will be no further need of inspired men to rebuke Israel in an attempt to lead them into the way of righteousness “for all shall know the Lord from the least unto the greatest” (Jer. 31:31-40; Isa. 11:9).

6. To Anoint the Most Holy - This refers to the cleansing of the Holy of Holies, the temple, and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination of desolation and the sacrilege of Gentiles, and to the establishment and anointing of the Millennial temple of Ezek. 40-43, which is yet to be built by Christ at His Second Advent (Zech. 6:12-13).

Not one of the six events above has been fulfilled as yet concerning Israel and Jerusalem. They must be fulfilled in the future in the 70th Week (the last seven years of this age) between the rapture and the Second Advent. They will parallel the seven-year covenant made between Antichrist and Israel (Dan. 9:27; Mt. 24:15-22). The seven-year period will be the time when all the events of Mt. 24:4-31; 25:31-46; Rev. 4:1–19:21 will be fulfilled, and when the whole seven-year tribulation will run its course. What is to happen during this Week was not revealed to Daniel in detail, but it was made known to John in Rev. 4:1–19:21. Other details were revealed by Jesus in Mt. 24:4-31; 25:31-46; Lk. 21:1-11, 25-36. This Week of years will begin after the rapture of the Church and continue to the Second Advent. The present Church Age comes in between the 69th and 70th Weeks, or between Israel’s rejection as a nation (Mt. 23:37-39; Rom. 9-11) and her conversion as a nation at the Second Advent of Christ (Isa. 66:7-8; Zech. 12:10–13:1; Rom. 11:25-29). 

 

 

[Kan]

None of the above scriptures can be proven to indicate the rapture, instead they apply to the one and only second Advent of Christ. No one has been able to prove to me that any text is specific to the rapture, and which cannot be applied to the second Advent. 

This indicates to me that the rapture is a false doctrine and inspired by the AC. Also the application of the prophecies in Daniel is all over the place, without any ground with the English language, history or its own interpretation.

The 70th week in Daniel belongs with the 69, and there is nothing in the Bible to tell us to apply it into the future. Where does the Bible say we should split up these times and apply them so? It does not give that permission.

The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of was not some small trouble of a short duration in the future. World war two lasted longer than what the trib is supposed to be, and there have been other times of trouble in the world which have far outlasted the few years that the trib is supposed to be.

The great tribulation was the 1260 years of the Papal reign. The Devil would not like us to remember that or accept it, and so far he has the world eating out of his hand. 

The Bible says that "in her" the whore of Babylon (false religion) "was found the blood of all that had been slain on the earth."

Jesus said in His day, that the persecutors of the saints were guilty of bloodshed "from righteous Abel" to the latest murder they had committed. One of the steps on the temple had permanent blood stains on it as Jesus was saying these words to them.

A future trib does not account for the bloodshed of millions in earth's history. Whatever Jesus was talking about had to be around in all ages, and if we read the meanings of Revelation correctly, the whore can be identified as false religion which established itself as a system tied to a political power in the early days of Babylon.

Hence the great whore which persecuted the saints for 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD is called "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." 

Not only is she guilty of the blood of the saints, but the blood of all that had been slain in the earth. Rev 18:24

She is the mastermind, the mentality of sin, the organization of Satan that has been behind all domestic and civil strife, social disorder, and war. And this beast is the one completely dismissed by rapturists and futurists - the doctrines of the Jesuits. Go figure. How can this be dismissed and completely washed over? Millions perished under her religious garb, and millions perished in revolutions and wars. How can anyone ignore this, unless they are completely blinded by the god of this world?

Either you want to know what Jesus said or you will be following the false teachers in the world into destruction.

Once again I put out the challenge which has not been met - show me one text which can only be applied to the rapture - which cannot be applied to the second Advent.

 

[HAZARD]

 

Quote

"Once again I put out the challenge which has not been met -

show me one text which can only be applied to the rapture - which cannot be applied to the second Advent. "

.

Hi Kan.

All of the above!

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Plus;

 

1 Thess. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17, Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS,  TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR THE SAINTS, and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH THEM  (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

 

At the rapture Christ takes the saints to Heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19:11-21).

 

At the rapture Christ does not come to the Earth (1 Thess. 4:16-17), but at the second coming He does (Zech. 14:4; Matt. 24:29-31).

 

Since Christ does not come to the earth at the Rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

[Kan]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

.

Hi Kan.

All of the above!

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Plus;

 

1 Thess. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17, Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS,  TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR THE SAINTS, and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH THEM  (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

 

At the rapture Christ takes the saints to Heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19:11-21).

 

At the rapture Christ does not come to the Earth (1 Thess. 4:16-17), but at the second coming He does (Zech. 14:4; Matt. 24:29-31).

 

Since Christ does not come to the earth at the Rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

These texts can apply to the second coming, of which there is only one event. They talk about the resurrection which Jesus said does not happen until the last day. 

It talks about meeting the Lord in the air, this happens at the second coming. Unless of course one believes the false doctrine of a peaceful millennium on earth. One false doctrine ties in with the other, pretext on pretext.