Understanding the Final One Seven

[Sister]

On 21/06/2016 at 9:56 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

Hi Marcus

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You were the one who said Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week.  Now in the midst of the week is the 'on wing, abominations, desolation.  So which was Jesus?  It is not quite obviously from the Israeli's doing; that may be your perspective though, but it does not comport with the language Gabriel uses.

 John 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matthew 27:25   Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

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I start with this in explaining the message Gabriel gives when I do the exegesis of it.  It is not for "Israel" but Daniel's people.  Daniel's people is defined by the Man in Linen in the last narrative in his book as being those who will inherit heaven.  That includes us; Daniel is one of us: the Elect.  Daniel 12:1b "...time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."  God said it; He set the definition for Daniel's people.  Gabriel just conveyed that same message - which is unchanging when he said: "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people..." - everyone written in the book.  Scripture interprets Scripture.  Daniel will be called up with the Dead in Christ to receive his allotted portion (inheritance) at the end of the age - Daniel 12:1

Daniel was praying for his people, Judah and the whole land of Israel as these scriptures attest. Daniel was disturbed because "his people" Israel, had gone astray, and he was presenting his supplication for them only, not the world.

 

Daniel 9:4   And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Daniel 9:5   We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

Daniel 9:6   Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Daniel 9:7   O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Daniel 9:11   Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel 9:15   And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

 

Daniel 9:20   And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
 

First of all Daniel mentions "the covenant", that God is keeping to those that love him and those who keep his commandments (the gentiles were not under those commandments, only Israel) then he mentions "the Law" that was given to Moses.  So this covenant can only be "the Law" that Israel were bound by....and we all know that since Christ's death, no man (of Israel) is bound by the law anymore, (the gentiles were not under the law) and the fulfillment of that law was Christ.  It ended with him.  This is what the Messiah confirmed, that he was the "seed" who had come, who would confirm the covenant (The law), and he did this by fulfilling everything written of him. 

So the "covenant" Daniel was speaking of, was the Law given to Moses, which is clear in the beginning of the chapter.

Daniel 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

 Matthew 5:18   For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 24:44   And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 Luke 24:45   Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

  Luke 24:46   And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

  Luke 24:47   And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

  Luke 24:48   And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[Serving]

20 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If the 70th Week is finished Israel would have benefited from the six tasks which were given to them and they would be living and walking with Christ.  They are not.  One must tie Dan 9:24 only to Israel and the holy city, for that is what the verse says. 

MM, the 6 tasks were requirements within an ULTIMATUM to be met by the NATION of Israel and met within the 70 weeks or else.

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This is a prophetic verse for Israel to receive or accomplish something by the end of the 70th Week.  It is not prophetic for them not to receive or accomplish something.

Agreed, and because they failed as a NATION to accomplish the ULTIMATUMS requirements, they received their NATIONAL punishment and rejection as God's priests which is why light came to the Gentiles to take up that office in their place .. it's really that simple.

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You need to show me where Israel and the holy city have finished transgressions, put an end to sin, to atone for their wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.  Why has Israel not fulfilled any of these?,  Because prophecy says they have 70 prophetic weeks to do so.

Because Israel AS A NATION failed to accomplish what God required of them .. so .. as a consequence, the punishments (clauses) recorded and built into the 70 week prophecy kicked in as a consequence of that NATIONAL failure.

"Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE and UPON THY HOLY CITY" .. note the wording MM .. THAT is called an ULTIMATUM ..  it is a ULTIMATUM from God and forced onto Israel by God. .. and the time limit within which to ACHIEVE the ULTIMATUMS 6 requirements is clearly 70 weeks or suffer the consequences .. it's as simple and as straight forward as that MM .. "do what I say within the 70 weeks OR ELSE face the CONSEQUENCES" is the message from God.

And seeing that Israel as a NATION failed to achieve those ULTIMATUMS, the punishments (clauses) within that 70 week prophecy most certainly kicked in which were these :

1) "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary : and the end thereof shall be with a flood".

2) "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined".

And 70ad - 73ad saw the fulfilment of the two clauses.

(will do a post with more info on it because I think it needs revisiting) 

Serving.

[Montana Marv]

Serving

How does Israel fit into the Mill (as in your other topic).  Do they receive the six benefits at that time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Very good point.  Since the purpose of the seventy 'sevens' all revolve around Christ Jesus, and since the Jews reject Him thoroughly, it's hard to see how any of this WAS accomplished within a Partial Preterist interpretation in, as Serving opines, the punishment of Israel... when one aim of God's Plan was everlasting righteousness.

28 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

How does Israel fit into the Mill (as in your other topic).  Do they receive the six benefits at that time.

Rather calling the seventy 'sevens' an ultimatum, (that's a new one for me) they are, in accordance with Lev 26:18 they are the punishment for failure, and out of which, God brings completion and holiness.

As the seventy 'sevens' do seal up prophecy, one can only question how the 'desolations decreed' leave out the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments, which is yet another internal inconsistency of Partial Preterism.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

23 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Marcus

 John 1:11   He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matthew 27:25   Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Hello Sister, how's things down under?  We have a wonderfully corrupt presidential candidate that upholds your gun confiscation as a model of success.  How's that working out for you?  (Side issue - never mind.)

"on wing, abominations, desolation" - that is the (typical) verbless Hebrew word structure Gabriel tells Daniel in 9:27.

Now I know the Jews rejected Jesus, and they reject Him still.  And I know that they word-cursed themselves, but the words Gabriel uses are much more powerful, and I'm trying to get (and I've never been successful in getting) a Preterist to specify what at Jesus' Crucifixion was the "abominations" and what was the "desolation" and that leads to a complete destruction - when His Crucixion was foretold in 9:26 as the "cutting off" of karat, which also has the double Hebrew word meaning (also so typical) of 'cutting a deal.'

So, while Serving has been unable to be specific, could you be more specific?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 6/24/2016 at 10:57 AM, Sister said:

Daniel was praying for his people, Judah and the whole land of Israel as these scriptures attest. Daniel was disturbed because "his people" Israel, had gone astray, and he was presenting his supplication for them only, not the world.

Yes, this is true.  Daniel was praying for his people who were still alive and in captivity, and he recognized that Jeremiah had been prophetic, at a time when the Jews had not yet recognized him as a prophet.  (The Jews still do not recognize Daniel as a prophet.)

But, just as the Jews do not recognize Daniel as a prophet because he was outside of Israel, and so, in their opinion, could not speak "to" Israel - so too do Preterists relegate Daniel to a smaller classification of people and so exclude the applicability of portions of his book to us.

it is very important that it is a messenger from God who states the phrase "Daniel's people".

So, if we are to understand who Daniel's people are, we have to lean our understanding to God's perspective.

In that regard, we are wholly ill-equipped since our hearts are far from His. 

However, the Man in Linen, who, unlike the Angel from Heaven upbraids John from adopting a position of worship to him, the Man in Linen does accept that from Daniel.  My pastor agrees with me that this is one of the many interactions Jesus does have with Man, as God did, - which sets the Man in Linen above a messenger being God.

And the Man in Linen specifically uses that same phrase and He specifies the definition of that phrase by qualifying it with the following: those "who are in the book."

This statement gives credence that the point for the seventy 'sevens' has a wider applicability for us - and because each half of the one 'seven', first split in half in 9:27 by Gabriel, is replicated in the book of Revelation - which was written after A.D. 73 - we might see that we, who also hope to be included in that very book (of life) must, by necessity, go through that time as well - just as Jesus referenced the Abominations Desolation midpoint in the Olivet Discourse - which comes BEFORE He Returns - which we are STILL awaiting!

Daniel 9:27 is not a stand-alone verse, and God defined who is people are, so we can use Scripture to interpret Scripture to find how it is applicable; and in this case, a stronger case is made that it applies to us. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Serving]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Serving

How does Israel fit into the Mill (as in your other topic).  Do they receive the six benefits at that time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I'll answer your question in detail in my other post I just posted MM .. even if you don't agree, at least you will see a more detailed explanation than I have ever given/committed myself to do on this subject in a long long time (since I am such a SLOW writer due to constant deleting and editing).

In short, the "benefits" were transferred to another "nation worthy of the fruits thereof" (as is written) due to Israel's failure to accept Messiah and the curse they placed themselves under which they swore to Pilate .. but God has provided a way for Israel nevertheless for the sake of His promises to the father's .. as is written, "thus shall all of Israel be saved" .. but under different CIRCUMSTANCES since their 70 week failure.

Serving.  

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On June 24, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Sister said:

First of all Daniel mentions "the covenant", that God is keeping to those that love him and those who keep his commandments (the gentiles were not under those commandments, only Israel) then he mentions "the Law" that was given to Moses.  So this covenant can only be "the Law" that Israel were bound by....and we all know that since Christ's death, no man (of Israel) is bound by the law anymore, (the gentiles were not under the law) and the fulfillment of that law was Christ.  It ended with him.  This is what the Messiah confirmed, that he was the "seed" who had come, who would confirm the covenant (The law), and he did this by fulfilling everything written of him. 

So the "covenant" Daniel was speaking of, was the Law given to Moses, which is clear in the beginning of the chapter.

Actually, which covenant Gabriel means here is anything but clear!

Now as to the Mosaic Covenant, one Bible source I can reference here while being on South Beach Miami without my books and computer talks about that covenant:

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In Exodus 19 the Lord God calls Moses up to the top of Mount Sinai. This conversation included the Mosaic covenant and the giving of the law (which is describe in detail in Exodus 20-23). Much like Abrahamic covenant, this too follows a Suzerain-Vassal treaty as we see a distinct structure mirrored throughout Exodus 19-24 where God: 1.) Establishes himself (Ex 20:1), 2.) Provides Historical Context (Ex 19:4, 20:2), 3.) Provided stipulations (19:5, 20:3-23:19), 4.) Given provisions for continued readings (19:6, 24:7), and provided a list of witnesses (19:8, 24:3, 7).

So in making a Covenant, God is very specific as to terms.

Likewise, if I allow you for the moment to use the incorrect translation, as the KJV translators did working with limited resources by candlelight, of confirm as the meaning for gabar, even then - that word has specific meaning which cannot and should not be confused with the word you and Serving are using to say Jesus is the actor of the pronoun 'he' implicit in the verb conjugation - by saying He fulfilled the Law.

That is not the question!  And we who criticize Preterist leanings in no way deny that Jesus fulfilled not only the Law, but Prophecy as well!

However!  You have not shown how Jesus CONFIRMED the Law when He actually freed us FROM the Law.  Because the Law does not give Life: only faith in Christ Jesus can.

So once again, I cannot find any Preterist who can be absolutely specific as to terms, places, times, and actions which show the 1:1 fulfillment from Daniel 9:24-27 to the historical record in detail.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On June 21, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Serving said:

That is why it is prudent to hear a matter before misjudging it .. let's see if we can sort this through ..

No I don't "feel", I know He confirmed the 1st covenant, which covenant I "defined" in my previous reply to you regarding the same charge .. again, even the scriptures agree He confirmed the covenant simply because Jesus KEPT the covenant .. He kept it/abided by it until crucifixion even.

Marcus it's really quite simple .. Christ confirmed His covenant through His Disciples ..  

I am trying to understand your argument because you cannot be specific, nor do you confine yourself to definable terms, substituting fulfilled for confirmed - and that's even allowing you to use an incorrect translation of gabar, which as a verb, means to prevail, or specifically in this case causes a covenant to be prevailed, with many for one week.

This covenant, which you say you know, but again that is a product of your mind; was "confirmed" by Jesus by "keeping" the Law - but that is not to confirm it by definition - until the Crucifixion - but that is only for some time over three years, and not necessarily the whole 'seven' specified by Gabriel.

Furthermore, you change the Mosaic Covenant, which you say was "1st", which was not the first, nor the second; to the New Covenant, which is the fifth Covenant God made with Man.  The New Covenant is in no way a confirmation of the Mosaic Covenant, or we'd all be still doing sacrifice and offering which will cease when the talking image of the anti-Christ is set up within the rebuilt Temple John measures (and Ezekiel recorded in 40-42).

Now you change your tune yet again, and say this short, limited-time covenant was "confirmed" by the Apostles when the verb is in the third-person, singular, masculine.  And at what point did they STOP confirming this convenant?  Again, nothing specific can be given.

So the problem I'm having here accepting your take on things is that I am left to swallow a very simple set of declarative statements that neither comport with the language of the passage, nor with history.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I am trying to understand your argument because you cannot be specific, nor do you confine yourself to definable terms, substituting fulfilled for confirmed - and that's even allowing you to use an incorrect translation of gabar, which as a verb, means to prevail, or specifically in this case causes a covenant to be prevailed, with many for one week.

This covenant, which you say you know, but again that is a product of your mind; was "confirmed" by Jesus by "keeping" the Law - but that is not to confirm it by definition - until the Crucifixion - but that is only for some time over three years, and not necessarily the whole 'seven' specified by Gabriel.

Furthermore, you change the Mosaic Covenant, which you say was "1st", which was not the first, nor the second; to the New Covenant, which is the fifth Covenant God made with Man.  The New Covenant is in no way a confirmation of the Mosaic Covenant, or we'd all be still doing sacrifice and offering which will cease when the talking image of the anti-Christ is set up within the rebuilt Temple John measures (and Ezekiel recorded in 40-42).

Now you change your tune yet again, and say this short, limited-time covenant was "confirmed" by the Apostles when the verb is in the third-person, singular, masculine.  And at what point did they STOP confirming this convenant?  Again, nothing specific can be given.

So the problem I'm having here accepting your take on things is that I am left to swallow a very simple set of declarative statements that neither comport with the language of the passage, nor with history.

Shalom, Marcus O'Reillius.

The New Covenant is the wrong covenant being strenthened ("confirmed"). The covenant is the DAVIDIC Covenant, neither the Mosaic nor the New Covenants. The Davidic Covenant is as follows:

Jeremiah 33:19-22
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
KJV

1 Chronicles 17:3-15
3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

The author of the chronicles of the kings just didn't know that "I will be his father and he shall be my son" was LITERAL, speaking about the Son of God! And, Ethan describes it in his Psalm:

Psalm 89:20-37
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness (Hebrew: checed = covenant-keeping) will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

It was THIS covenant that was declared to His mother before Yeshua`s birth:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Now, the words spoken at His mikvah (baptism) make more sense:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV