missmuffet Posted April 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.79 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2016 1 hour ago, MorningGlory said: I am not condemning anyone for reading it only questioning the wisdom in doing so. We can be burned badly by playing with things better left alone. Noncanonical writings are not good study material for Christians. If God wanted us to study those He would have made sure they made it into His inerrant Bible, don't you think? Speculating that the Book of Enoch was TOO BIG is getting pretty far out there, Sister. I agree with you on this MG. I have no interest at all in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted April 19, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,155 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,869 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2016 I am amazed at how people can judge things without actually seeing them and in this case reading them..... Oh well, I think I'm done with this go around....... see you next time it's brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,822 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,807 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) Quote Genesis 1:14 says the lights are to marks seasons, days and years. I am not sure where you have found after this that there weren't seasons until after Noah. The Bible also says that it did not rain before the flood. It says that what God planted could not grow without water, and a mist went over the land (Genesis 2:5-6). To me, this just demonstrates preserving the integrity of where He wanted things. Hypothetically, if rain were to cover the land rather than a mist, the whole garden of Eden could have been in a completely different place. In my opinion, this just proves that science can demonstrate evidence for creation. However, this doesn't in any way suggest that there wasn't rain until the flood. Well, as a someone who loves the Bible and taught science for many years, I’ll try my best not to put anyone to sleep here. Seasons: When I read Genesis 8:22 – "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter shall not cease by day or night." – I see this as God explain critical climatic changes to the earth now that the Flood was over. Something changed. And it was huge. And it drastically changed human ages and affected mass extinction of large animals and even dinosaurs that had been on the Ark. What was that change? There is tremendous evidence that the earth’s geographical axis (not the magnetic poles) tilted – we do know it isn’t a constant. The Bible speaks of this, too. Job 9:5-6 - “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (poles) tremble.” We know that the earth’s geographical axis is “wobbly”. It is due in part to huge gravitational forces that take up the whole solar system and the earth’s own protruding “belly” (the equator) and both the Sun and Moon manipulating it. I believe seasons came forth or at the very least changed drastically after the Flood. Rain: There could have been evaporation and condensation over the seas and the ocean, but with a different tilt to the earth’s axis, there would have in insignificant wind and small clouds probably formed over the great sea only. Remember the seas were gathered in one place. [Genesis 1:9-10] Evaporation and condensation happens all the time – even with no rain – dew still forms, fog still forms…. But once the axis change took place, wind would have taken these clouds higher into the sky and over the land – and normal/hard rain would have been present there….hence…. Rainbows: Can you imagine Noah and his people after the Flood, minding their own business dealing with new sprinkles of rain and then a hard, but normal rain came? I can only imagine it would have scared them. Ergo, this is why God needed to covenant with them AND the animals by the way (Genesis 9:12) to reassure them that a global flood would never again occur. God said the rainbow would be seen in the clouds and it WILL be a sign between him and all life on earth that he would never send a Flood like that again. If it had been raining and storming normally before the Flood, then people would have been very familiar with rainbows and heavy, but normal rains would not have been cause for alarm and a covenant. Finally, Hebrew 11:7 says that God warned Noah of things not yet seen before. And Noah believed God and by faith built the Ark which was to the condemnation of the rest of the world. Noah believed the warning of the “thing” never seen before. Was that rain – at the very least - normal and heavy rain like had previously been unknown? Edited April 20, 2016 by Jayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Jayne said: Well, as a someone who loves the Bible and taught science for many years, I’ll try my best not to put anyone to sleep here. Seasons: When I read Genesis 8:22 – "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter shall not cease by day or night." – I see this as God explain critical climatic changes to the earth now that the Flood was over. Something changed. And it was huge. And it drastically changed human ages and affected mass extinction of large animals and even dinosaurs that had been on the Ark. What was that change? There is tremendous evidence that the earth’s geographical axis (not the magnetic poles) tilted – we do know it isn’t a constant. The Bible speaks of this, too. Job 9:5-6 - “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (poles) tremble.” We know that the earth’s geographical axis is “wobbly”. It is due in part to huge gravitational forces that take up the whole solar system and the earth’s own protruding “belly” (the equator) and both the Sun and Moon manipulating it. I believe seasons came forth or at the very least changed drastically after the Flood. I agree that there were changes that took place after the flood. In fact, I agree with almost everything that you are saying in your entire post even though I have only highlighted the part about the seasons. However, this does not mean that there were no distinctions prior to this that would have been observable, which are also demonstrated in scripture prior to the flood. Enoch also distinguishes the markings of seasons in part three when he gives a description of how the distribution of light changes over the course of the year marking seasons. He also does mention that changes in seasons are marked by the trees and how they will lose their leaves in another place. However, this would only demonstrate that deciduous trees were present since the beginning of creation and I have no reason to object to this. More importantly, I think in regard to your argument about how scripture demonstrates that there was a change to our weather system that took place after the flood, is that he does not talk about coldness or snow. Snow has presented itself as hardship associated with the fall by many European writers like Dante and John Milton. Many people who have had to experience harsh, cold winters have noticed that the Garden of Eden was probably void of this trial. However, just because I am not aware of an absence of a discussion on the subject of snow, does not mean that there was no snow present prior to the flood. It just means that the experience of snow is going to be dependent on whether you are located in a place where snow would be present. There are still no places along the equator where snow is an issue unless you climb Mount Kenya. Therefore, from the whole text, it is possible to see that his descriptions of seasons is different than our observations of changing seasons in some ways, but in other ways it is not. However, it does not substantially discredit the book of Enoch either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 10 hours ago, other one said: you may be thinking of the Raëlians. I'm not sure I would put it in the same category as New Age... No that's not it, it's driving me crazy, I can't remember what they call themselves, and I used to speak to someone on a different forum from this belief and it's all about angel worship, making them out to be gods. Their writings are totally contrary to the bible. I'll keep trying to think of the name of this belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 6 hours ago, bopeep1909 said: I agree with you on this MG. I have no interest at all in the book. That's fine Bopeep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 5 hours ago, Jayne said: Well, as a someone who loves the Bible and taught science for many years, I’ll try my best not to put anyone to sleep here. Seasons: When I read Genesis 8:22 – "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter shall not cease by day or night." – I see this as God explain critical climatic changes to the earth now that the Flood was over. Something changed. And it was huge. And it drastically changed human ages and affected mass extinction of large animals and even dinosaurs that had been on the Ark. What was that change? There is tremendous evidence that the earth’s geographical axis (not the magnetic poles) tilted – we do know it isn’t a constant. The Bible speaks of this, too. Job 9:5-6 - “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (poles) tremble.” We know that the earth’s geographical axis is “wobbly”. It is due in part to huge gravitational forces that take up the whole solar system and the earth’s own protruding “belly” (the equator) and both the Sun and Moon manipulating it. I believe seasons came forth or at the very least changed drastically after the Flood. Rain: There could have been evaporation and condensation over the seas and the ocean, but with a different tilt to the earth’s axis, there would have in insignificant wind and small clouds probably formed over the great sea only. Remember the seas were gathered in one place. [Genesis 1:9-10] Evaporation and condensation happens all the time – even with no rain – dew still forms, fog still forms…. But once the axis change took place, wind would have taken these clouds higher into the sky and over the land – and normal/hard rain would have been present there….hence…. Rainbows: Can you imagine Noah and his people after the Flood, minding their own business dealing with new sprinkles of rain and then a hard, but normal rain came? I can only imagine it would have scared them. Ergo, this is why God needed to covenant with them AND the animals by the way (Genesis 9:12) to reassure them that a global flood would never again occur. God said the rainbow would be seen in the clouds and it WILL be a sign between him and all life on earth that he would never send a Flood like that again. If it had been raining and storming normally before the Flood, then people would have been very familiar with rainbows and heavy, but normal rains would not have been cause for alarm and a covenant. Finally, Hebrew 11:7 says that God warned Noah of things not yet seen before. And Noah believed God and by faith built the Ark which was to the condemnation of the rest of the world. Noah believed the warning of the “thing” never seen before. Was that rain – at the very least - normal and heavy rain like had previously been unknown? Thank you for sharing that Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Esther4:14 said: In my opinion, there are many points of interest for me in regard to the book of Enoch. The first being its absence and presence today somewhat fulfills the prophecy that the book is intended for those in the last generation. In fact, in the Introduction to Ken Johnson's translation of the book of Enoch, he points out that Enoch 104:11-13 says that there will be a book that many will use to avoid being lost by the deception of many false teachings circulating. "and now I know this mystery; that many sinners will alter and distort the words of truth, and speak evil words, and lie, and concoct great fabrications, and write books in their own words. But when they write my words exactly in their languages, and do not alter or omit anything from my words, but write everything exactly, everything that I testified about before; then I know another mystery: That books will be given to the righteous and wise and will be a source of joy and truth and much wisdom. And books will be given to them, and they will believe in them and rejoice over them: and all the righteous who have learnt from them all the ways of truth will be glad." Basically, he has just prophesied that we would have the Bible. I am also finding connections to the Bible that are too numerous to count as I read through the book. " Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn," (Enoch 9:6-7). " But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden," (Revelation 2:24). " And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars" (Enoch 18:2-3). " After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree." (Revelation 7:1). There are many other examples like this that I have found. However, one of the most interesting things that I have learned overall is how the flood has caused our generation to be innocent in some respects of the sins that were committed before the flood. When I listen to Enoch talk about the things that were being done, it is interesting to consider how there is no real way to know otherwise because according to scripture, all of this was destroyed with the flood. We are all innocent of these things that were done beforehand. This is very profound for me to consider. Therefore, I find that the book of Enoch does edify my understanding of scripture in this way. I also consider this book to be much older than described. I have read that they consider Enoch to have been transcribed in 200 BC. However, this does not mean it was written around that time. Ken Johnson suggests that the literary style indicates this could be taken from an older writing possibly dating 1000 BC. However, I would suggest even older than that based on many factors. The first is that the first literary comparison that comes to mind when I consider the book of Enoch is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which dates back as far as 2000 BC. Literary style is significant in that someone like John Milton prose writing will identify the time period that it was originally written in without other methods of investigation. He wrote paragraphs where he would only punctuate with commas, which you would never find in modern writing. Therefore, demonstrating the time of the composition without other methods being necessary. This really came to my attention when I was reading Enoch explain the calendar, which he suggests is divided into 18 parts, like a pie graph; and, that the parts shaded by nigh and day fluctuate based on the time of year, and that all of this is along determined by the course the sun is placed on (Enoch, section 3). This description very clearly contrasts with Aristotle's writing On the Heavens that he wrote around 300 BC. There is just really comparison in the use of language in describing the heavens to suggest that they were written as somewhat contemporary pieces. In conclusion, I find the book of Enoch interesting and edifying as well. Esther4:14 I respect your opinion, because you really search things out to see whether they are true or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 On 18/04/2016 at 0:39 AM, Jayne said: Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, did not write the pseudepigraphical book we know of today as the Book of Enoch. Who wrote it? We don't know. But it isn't an ante-deluvian book - most say it was written not long before Christ. There was not even cuneiform writing yet in Enoch's day. Yes, Jude seemingly quotes from this book. And the apostle Paul quotes from a pagan proverb and other sources. And the authors of Kings and Chronicles cite outside scripture sources. It doesn't mean these sources are scripture. It just means some of the authors of the Bible quoted something they said. Most of what I have read from the Book of Enoch grossly contradicts the Bible. Hi Jayne Could you please expand on a little more on what you mean here? Quote And the apostle Paul quotes from a pagan proverb and other sources. And the authors of Kings and Chronicles cite outside scripture sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted April 20, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,140 Content Per Day: 4.62 Reputation: 27,824 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2016 Blessings Sister............... You may find it quite interesting to look up the many many Threads on this very same Topic in the archives,,,,,,,,,I'm not sure what you are asking for when you say "anyone who wants to have a go at it".......What scriptures are you asking about,,,,I have a hard time going back & forth from page 1 to page 2,hate computers,I'm not so savvy-lol Quote Western scholars currently assert that its older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) date from about 300 BC and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably was composed at the end of the 1st century BC Plus ,if you will,,,,can you specifically refer to which section,part(or "Book")you want to address in correlation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I must admit,I am getting mixed up n what you are hoping to achieve here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thanks Sis,help me out please Love,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts