Chaos - True or False?

[post]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

The idea is that God has made a law of sowing and reaping, and evil and bad results will come when men sin.

yes, and that He is the Lord, and He does these things. no one else has created them. 

as illustrated in Isaiah 24 --

Look, the LORD is stripping the earth bare
and making it desolate.
He will twist its surface and scatter its inhabitants
(Isaiah 24:1)

it is the Lord who works judgement. He does these things; they are by His hand. 
which things? many things - we could read the whole chapter.. but one thing is particularly relevant here: 

The city of chaos is shattered;
every house is closed to entry.
(Isaiah 24:10) 

He has caused the city to be in chaos -- the Lord has done these things; it is at His hand -- Look, the Lord is exercising judgement. 

so the Almighty Himself may create chaos -- i think it is presumptuous to say, "surely not by the hand of the Lord" - judgement is His strange work, as the scripture says, but it is His work, nonetheless. He forms the light and the darkness, peace and calamity. all things are made by Him and for Him and through Him, both things that are seen and things that are unseen, objects and creatures and powers and principalities, ideas and thoughts -- all things will bow to His good pleasure and are for His own glory created, to have their proper time and season.

i know that it is strange to think that the Lord could be the author of chaos - and out of reverence for Him we reject the idea. but think of the replies we give when someone says to us, 'if God is perfect, why does evil and sin exist in the universe? why did He allow this to enter the world in the first place?' 
the solution to 'the problem of evil' is the same as the solution to 'the problem of chaos' -- it is for His glory, and exists in its proper place, so that we can comprehend His mercy, and His greatness. 

there is no other God, and no other Creator. 

 

[Kan]

12 hours ago, post said:

we sang a spiritual song today in church; i was reminded of this thread. 

♪ who brings our chaos

back into order ?

who makes the orphan

a son a daughter ?

the King of Glory

great King above all kings ! ♫

You are funny 

[Kan]

7 hours ago, post said:

for sure?

He says:

I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)

but i maintain that there isn't any true "chaos" - it's a subjective, human term that we use when we can't perceive the order that God ordains. that's the perspective i'm speaking from.
because, remember what the Bible says about randomness? 

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD. 
(Proverbs 16:33)

A very concise answer

[Kan]

On 5/30/2016 at 2:25 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Your analysis is faulty.  Darkness is the absence of light, which is the absence of God.  The waters in the deep of Genesis 1:2 reflect the absence of God, or more specifically, God's judgment.  Chaos represents God's judgment.  God has removed order which results in chaos.

Yes and no. If I may introduce you to a paradoxical truth, Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the One "by Whom all things consist" and "were created." He is the One Who subjected Himself to the Father for the sake of the creation.

The only way a creation can exist is by God making an allowance for it, because the Divine is far too powerful for anything whatsoever to exist with Him. The allowance is a sublimation of power and never the raising up of power, because nothing can be greater or more powerful than God Himself.

When God gives, it is only received by God, unless there is another place where it can go, however the gift or power still ends up coming back to God, through the creation. The spoken Word (which is love in the fullest sense) ends up coming back to God through love from the creation. All of creation expresses love to God, whether animate or inanimate. That's why the Psalmist can say "the trees will break forth with singing unto the Lord," "the earth is full of thy praise/glory" "the heavens declare the glory of God..." and so forth.

The universe was not made for us, but for God, for His enjoyment.

If the giving of God involves producing a creation, there has to be a sheltered place where that creation may exist, and that place can only be provided by God, or One equal with God, and nothing less than Divinity.

Jesus is God, and He is the One by which a sheltered place for creation exists. This means that through His power the opposite of Light has been made, the darkness, which is not just nothing, but something which is less than nothing, and as powerful as the infinite light of God. The subjection of the Son to His Father in creation, produces the vault for the whole of the universe to exist.

The immensity of the universe, its seemingly impossible greatness and properties which are, for all its practical purpose, infinite, is a testament of the power of God through Christ. That void made for each part of the universe, is created by infinite power and nothing else.

So the universe is an orchestration, or generation - as Moses calls it, of infinite powers, of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.

(If you want to know the role of each of the Godhead, the Gospel has all the answers.)

"The waters" in the beginning and before the spoken light of creation, is the result of the Son making room for creation, by a subjection of His own power. An action which is as powerful as God.

Of themselves the waters are death, and the only thing that can exist in them is the Light spoken by the Word or Jesus. All creations are built on the platform of the Light, which comes from the Father, through Christ, Who makes the creation according to His Father's will. The interaction of this giving, is so strong, that One equal with God, even the Spirit, is fully given to mediate every facet of it. Hence we find the Spirit in the beginning assessing every possible action and consequence, every provision of that creation, every interaction of the Word, past present and future. (The Spirit had no need to fly over an ocean of salt water like a fighter jet as some imagine.)

Jesus only has to surrender His power once, and that action produces an infinite result. This also applies to His word which only has to be said once to have eternal results. The same Word which made this world, produced the flood, and will produce the destruction by fire, and will recreate the earth eventually. It doesn't matter what transpires inbetween it will automatically do what God intended, and how He intends.

So creation is done through surrender, through meekness, and not through vaunting one's power. These characteristics are in tune with pure love, and therefor the universe is made by love and never by brutality or force.

A study of the waters and what they can do, shows that they facilitate many functions of creation, nothing that we know of can exist without them. Just as much as the Light is beyond common understanding, the waters are the same, and while either force is destructive to matter, under the power of the Word, they are quietened, settled and intertwined to produce matter. 

Sorry about the rambling, I mixed in too many themes...

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 3:02 AM, Kan said:

 

I disagree with your perspective in so many ways it is impossible for me to cover in a single reply, nor do I want to waste my time doing so with multiple replies.  I'll just say you don't have a Biblical basis for your beliefs.  They come from your mind, your imagination, and your reasoning.  I am not questioning your Christianity, only your discernment of Biblical truth.  You are so outside the Bible, I really don't know where to start quite frankly.

[LeavesSeeds]

there's nothing new under the sun,   as this woman's testimony with Scripture shows:

"

God judged Jerusalem, taking them out of the land, either by death or captivity. The case against them? Murder, forcing foreigners to pay for protection and depriving them of justice, oppressing the poor, robbing the needy, mistreating widows and orphans, killing their own children, false accusations leading to death sentences, idol worship, adultery, rape, extortion, Ponzi schemes and abandoning the Lord. Though they had warning, they did not turn from their ways. See Ezekiel 22.

When God judges the earth in the end of days, people will suffer, but they will not turn from their ways***: “But the people who did not die in these plagues still refused to repent of their evil deeds and turn to God. They continued to worship demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—idols that can neither see nor hear nor walk! And they did not repent of their murders or their witchcraft or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:20-21‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Why do we stick to our guns, doing what is wrong and not heeding the warnings of destruction? I don’t know as a whole, but individually I know my story. When I left God, wanting to do things my way – I was full of self-reliance, pride and desires. I thought I was right and I was willing to justify myself. That didn’t do me any good, because only Jesus can make things right, though his blood and sacrifice on the cross. I have no power. God woke me up through discipline and pain. When the pain became greater then I could bear, I turned back to God. What is the threshold of man. It is individual. Who will turn and repent for their own good? We can only pray for our loved ones, that they will see the light.

Dear Lord, open the eyes of those who are blind to your call. Let them hear and see you for who you are. That they would know the Savior of their souls. In Jesus name, amen

S.

***this has been happening all over the world and the usa and in most churches for the last 100 years,  whether or not this is the end times.... .... ....

[kwikphilly]

Quote

there's nothing new under the sun,   as this woman's testimony with Scripture shows:

"

God judged Jerusalem, taking them out of the land, either by death or captivity. The case against them? Murder, forcing foreigners to pay for protection and depriving them of justice, oppressing the poor, robbing the needy, mistreating widows and orphans, killing their own children, false accusations leading to death sentences, idol worship, adultery, rape, extortion, Ponzi schemes and abandoning the Lord. Though they had warning, they did not turn from their ways. See Ezekiel 22.

When God judges the earth in the end of days, people will suffer, but they will not turn from their ways***: “But the people who did not die in these plagues still refused to repent of their evil deeds and turn to God. They continued to worship demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—idols that can neither see nor hear nor walk! And they did not repent of their murders or their witchcraft or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:20-21‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Why do we stick to our guns, doing what is wrong and not heeding the warnings of destruction? I don’t know as a whole, but individually I know my story. When I left God, wanting to do things my way – I was full of self-reliance, pride and desires. I thought I was right and I was willing to justify myself. That didn’t do me any good, because only Jesus can make things right, though his blood and sacrifice on the cross. I have no power. God woke me up through discipline and pain. When the pain became greater then I could bear, I turned back to God. What is the threshold of man. It is individual. Who will turn and repent for their own good? We can only pray for our loved ones, that they will see the light.

Dear Lord, open the eyes of those who are blind to your call. Let them hear and see you for who you are. That they would know the Savior of their souls. In Jesus name, amen

S.

***this has been happening all over the world and the usa and in most churches for the last 100 years,  whether or not this is the end times...

               posted by Leaves Seeds

Very well,,,,,,,,,,Amen to your prayer, Praise Jesus!

Now,this has what to do with the Topic?Just asking                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Kan]

On 6/1/2016 at 0:17 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I disagree with your perspective in so many ways it is impossible for me to cover in a single reply, nor do I want to waste my time doing so with multiple replies.  I'll just say you don't have a Biblical basis for your beliefs.  They come from your mind, your imagination, and your reasoning.  I am not questioning your Christianity, only your discernment of Biblical truth.  You are so outside the Bible, I really don't know where to start quite frankly.

Well I'm glad I am not left without a challenge to keep me in check. I could be way off track, and possibly don't even know how I got here, but for the time being I love what has been introduced to me through years of interest. Thanks for your input.

[enoob57]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 5:12 AM, Kan said:

Is chaos possible?

Isa 46:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
KJV
This witness of God to us declares the random/chaos cannot be/ except by perverting the appearance of reality that 'IS' God... Thus by Gen 2:1
the sanctifying of all that had beginning sin could not have been yet and the (without form and void) is merely a beginning point God uses to
our understanding in the infinite of God Himself...

 

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 3:14 PM, Kan said:

It would have been easier if you had just said that.

That's true. Chaos as we know it was not in existence before sin.

At the same time anything which is too difficult for us to grasp can be called chaos. There are plenty of good things that God has created which we do not understand, they seem like chaos to us.

For example, if you look up at the stars, can you see any geometric pattern, like a prism, a square, triangle, a straight line through three stars etc. The answer is no. There does not seem to be any such order, and yet there are patterns among the stars. 3D patterns, spirals, branches, globular formations, etc These are not so obvious. But the very fact that there are no geometric shapes, shows that it is organized to be random, and this apparent randomness has an organization on another level.

God is able to create a substance which has the properties of defying all known perceptions and attempts to explain it, it is chaotic to us, but it can be a deliberate state designed to accomplish something else. 

We must keep the submission of ourselves to the inadequacies of self... it is the illusive platform for pride!
When we allow God's Word to structure even our beginning we have effectively divorced ourselves from this
world and the structure of error that resides here and the renewing of the mind to that of all things new has
substance to the alien aspects we are becoming... that organized on another level cannot be addressed on a
different level or one will enter into gnostic error.

 

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 6:15 AM, Kan said:

That's right Enoob, you have made that point a few times. There is a big difference in studying the character of God, through nature and revelation, and trying to know the physical nature of God, which is forbidden due to the fact that it cannot be understood or known in the least wise, and trying is sick and disrespectful to His Name.

Yes. There is a gap between the Word and creation, which cannot be fathomed. We count on God not thinking like us, otherwise we'd be in trouble... every time.

God has allowed us to study nature from the standpoint of His character, which is Love.

For instance, the elements in the creation story, are illustrations of the two combined facets of Love. Water and light are symbols of mercy and justice.

Both can be symbols of the other, water can be justice prevailing, and light dispels the darkness in mercy. These two pillars of love are one in God. 

It just so happens that matter is made up of the two major elements in Genesis. One of them gives matter a position or orientation in space, and it accounts for things like inertia, mass and gravity, and the other element gives matter its volume in space and mobility, malleability, heat, acceleration etc.. One is more about structure and stability the other is about freedom of movement and changeability. A combination of the two gives us material, something which is somewhat stable, as well as changeable under certain conditions.

We look at justice as the stability and mercy as liberation.

We are to test/try the spirits to see if they are of God
1 Jn 4:1
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
KJV
the only objective element in this place 'IS' The Word of God as it is written to all people in all times with the instructor being God Himself
in the person of The Holy Spirit... this structured objective truth from God speaks of no gaps and for one to place one there they do so
on some other resource than God's Word and that is gnostic in spirit... 
Love, Steven

[Kan]

On 6/10/2016 at 2:16 AM, enoob57 said:

Isa 46:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
KJV
This witness of God to us declares the random/chaos cannot be/ except by perverting the appearance of reality that 'IS' God... Thus by Gen 2:1
the sanctifying of all that had beginning sin could not have been yet and the (without form and void) is merely a beginning point God uses to
our understanding in the infinite of God Himself...

 

We must keep the submission of ourselves to the inadequacies of self... it is the illusive platform for pride!
When we allow God's Word to structure even our beginning we have effectively divorced ourselves from this
world and the structure of error that resides here and the renewing of the mind to that of all things new has
substance to the alien aspects we are becoming... that organized on another level cannot be addressed on a
different level or one will enter into gnostic error.

 

We are to test/try the spirits to see if they are of God
1 Jn 4:1
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
KJV
the only objective element in this place 'IS' The Word of God as it is written to all people in all times with the instructor being God Himself
in the person of The Holy Spirit... this structured objective truth from God speaks of no gaps and for one to place one there they do so
on some other resource than God's Word and that is gnostic in spirit... 
Love, Steven

A very interesting and appropriate reply Enoob.

What I think you are basically saying is, that there is nothing in between the Word and its creation. I agree with that, and I understand that the invisible things that Jesus has created are part of the visible creation, so that the things which we see are not made of visible things, but invisible. 

However there is a gap of comprehension of the Word, where the Word is beyond our understanding, we cannot know the complexity of the Word. But the Bible does not disconnect heaven and earth as the heathen do, and shows that there is an intimate connection between the Word and creation, on the physical level, as well as on the spiritual. The idea of understanding the physical connection between the Word and creation is to strengthen the evidence for our spiritual connection by the same. You can understand why the devil would like to get in there and prevent any knowledge.

While it is enough to believe in the proximity of God's Word and protection, in the last days it will pay to have some knowledge of how nature operates, and what is physically possible, outside the normal perimeters.

I acknowledge where you are coming from in regards to gnosticism and other false ideas creeping into the unknown. The Devil is opportunistic, and will enter where he can. He has done this in the past and still does it.

The study of the invisible factors of the universe is not ignored in the Bible, but it is generally ignored by Christians, which leaves them vulnerable if anything unusual or supernatural occurs, they cannot tell if it is natural or from the devil, or whatever. A myriad of theories can come in, as YouTube demonstrates, alien theories, reptilianism, Nephilim theories and dozens of crackpot ideas.

What the Bible says about these invisible elements is generally not known by Christians or unbelievers, and it is hoped by the devil that this ignorance will prevail long enough for him to deceive the world with his works of lying wonders and miracles, as well as foreign/ancient technology. He will give 'evidence' of his lies to the scientific world, and they will believe in him as some sort of Christ, so that the secular is fully united with the superstitious and religious.

The false doctrines held among nominal churches of Christendom and all world religions today, will be the catalyst to deceive the whole world. We have the choice to arm ourselves with truth in doctrine and in science.

A correct understanding of nature will not contradict the Bible and will also agree with scientific observations, but not necessarily the theories and conclusions of the evidence at hand.