The Gates of Hell

[St_Worm2]

17 minutes ago, Murphy said:

Yes, and '40 days and 40 nights' are not literal either.

Former things will pass away, be no more.

Hi Murphy, are you saying that you don't believe the "Flood" occurred, or that it did not happen in a literal 40 days/40 nights?

I agree that the there will be new Heavens and a new Earth, and that the former Heavens and the former Earth will not be remembered (that's all spelled out in the Bible), but what does any of that have to do with Hell/2nd Death/Lake of Fire that is being discussed here?

Thanks!

--David

[St_Worm2]

4 hours ago, Murphy said:

Many were found righteous before Messiah.

The only thing Messiah removed from us is the 'curse of the Law', death, not the law itself.

Hi again Murphy, while the law teaches us what it means to be holy (and it remains EXTREMELY important to us for many other reasons as well .. i.e. Galatians 3:24-25), Christians will not be judged/condemned by it (John 5:24). It sounds like we are probably on the same page, but just to be certain about that, what do you mean when you say that the law has not been removed? And what purpose(s) do you believe the law has today in the life of a believer?

As for some being found "righteous" prior to Messiah, while I understand that the Bible says that, the question is, does the Bible mean what you believe it does in this case? If you think it does (that certain men were found to be perfectly righteous, just like Jesus was), how does that understanding of personal righteousness not contradict the following verses, many of which include the qualifying phrase, "no not one/not even one"?

                 1      The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
         They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
         There is no one who does good.
                 2      The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
         To see if there are any who understand,
         Who seek after God.
                 3      They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
         There is no one who does good, not even one. ~Psalm 14

 

                6      All of us like sheep have gone astray,
         Each of us has turned to his own way;
         But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
         To fall on Him. ~Isaiah 53

 

                 9 ... both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
               10      as it is written,
         “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
               11      THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
               12      ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” ~Romans 3

 

             23      for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ~Romans 3
 

Thanks!

--David

 

"Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just  
one point is guilty of breaking all of it"
James 2:10

 

 

Edited May 20, 2016 by St_Worm2

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Murphy said:

Many were found righteous before Messiah.

The only thing Messiah removed from us is the 'curse of the Law', death, not the law itself.

What do you think happens to an unbeliever when they die?

[Murphy]

1 hour ago, St_Worm2 said:

Hi Murphy, are you saying that you don't believe the "Flood" occurred, or that it did not happen in a literal 40 days/40 nights?

I agree that the there will be new Heavens and a new Earth, and that the former Heavens and the former Earth will not be remembered (that's all spelled out in the Bible), but what does any of that have to do with Hell/2nd Death/Lake of Fire that is being discussed here?

Thanks!

--David

40day/nights is a Hebrew idiom.

I means- a long time.

Moses fasted......

Yahshua tested........

Noah's rain.....

There may be a couple of others........

[Murphy]

49 minutes ago, St_Worm2 said:

Hi again Murphy, while the law teaches us what it means to be holy (and it remains EXTREMELY important to us for many other reasons as well .. i.e. Galatians 3:24-25), Christians will not be judged/condemned by it (John 5:24). It sounds like we are probably on the same page, but just to be certain about that, what do you mean when you say that the law has not been removed? And what purpose(s) do you believe the law has today in the life of a believer?

As for some being found "righteous" prior to Messiah, while I understand that the Bible says that, the question is, does the Bible mean what you believe it means in this case? If you think it does (that certain men were found to be perfectly righteous, just like Jesus was), how does that understanding of personal righteousness not contradict the following verses, many of which include the qualifying phrase, "no not one/not even one"?

                 1      The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
         They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
         There is no one who does good.
                 2      The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
         To see if there are any who understand,
         Who seek after God.
                 3      They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
         There is no one who does good, not even one. ~Psalm 14

 

                6      All of us like sheep have gone astray,
         Each of us has turned to his own way;
         But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
         To fall on Him. ~Isaiah 53

 

                 9 ... both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
               10      as it is written,
         “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
               11      THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
               12      ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” ~Romans 3

 

             23      for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ~Romans 3
 

Thanks!

--David

 

"Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just  
one point is guilty of breaking all of it"
James 2:10

 

 

You will be Judged, just as I will be Judged.

 

2 Corinthians

Our Eternal Dwelling
…9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 11Therefore, since we know what it means to fear of the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.…

Berean Study Bible · Download

Cross References

Job 34:11
"For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:32
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Acts 10:42
And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead.

Romans 2:5
But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 2:16
This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men's secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Romans 14:10
Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Ephesians 6:8
because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,

[Murphy]

Romans 2:12

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
 

 

What Shaul is referring to here-

 

Those who are under Torah will be Judged by Torah, those outside of Torah will be put to death.

[Murphy]

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

So you believe there is no heaven or hell?  You cannot claim to be a Christian if you don't believe in these very basic concepts.

So, you judge my faith?

 

I did not say there was no heaven, I am saying there is no place called hell as you refer to hell.

All dead go to Sheol and await the resurrection.

[Murphy]

38 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

What do you think happens to an unbeliever when they die?

You and I will disagree on who or what a 'believer' is, that said, within your context-

 

The unbeliever is destroyed.

[Murphy]

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

If clear Scripture cannot convince you that hell exists, and is eternal, then nothing will.  Except for maybe going there.  Denying Scripture is a very serious thing, Murphy. 

I concern myself with my salvation, you concern yourself with yours.

 

I will base my salvation on what the Word says.

[Murphy]

10 minutes ago, Murphy said:

Romans 2:12

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
 

 

What Shaul is referring to here-

 

Those who are under Torah will be Judged by Torah, those outside of Torah will be put to death.

Better translation-

God's Righteous Judgment
…11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law. 13For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.…