When Nations turn against Israel

[n2thelight]

13 hours ago, Salty said:

Read the end of Zechariah 12, and what Jesus said to the daughters of Jerusalem that wept for Him in Luke 23. Then compare that to the last part of Romans 11 about Israel in part that God blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete.

God is not going to destroy any soul in the lake of fire that He Himself blinded away from The Gospel. The majority of Jews He blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. When Jesus returns, the Jew's blindness will be removed, and that Zech.12 and Luke 23 event will happen. They will wish for the hills and mountains to 'fall on us', because of their shame of not accepting Jesus as Messiah. And they will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future thousand years reign (Ezek.44). But is God going to destroy them? Not those of them who turn to Jesus in the Millennium.

 

 

Thanks Salty

[n2thelight]

If you can't see that Israel has always been the Church,you won't get it...

[Salty]

1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You are saying that in accord your imagination and interpretation, but what prevails is the Word of God, the Word is God, the Word is Spirit.   You are generalizing as if all birthed in Israel were Israelites, but not are Israelites.  What prevails is the Word of God, that says: Roman: 9:v.6 - 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:   Rev.2:8-9 is very clear: 8 These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

What I'm saying is what God's Word is saying, as I quoted the sources of it. I can take the time and post the actual Scripture and spoon feed those who need it, line upon line, if that's what some here want...

Romans 11 first:

Rom 11:2-5
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

That "remnant according to the election of grace" is not about the Israel in part that God blinded away from The Gospel, which I will cover in the next Scripture example. This remnant here represents a remnant of all 12 tribes which God preserved IN THE GOSPEL. It definitely included the small remnant of Jews like Paul and Christ's Apostles, part of the foundation of Christ's Church.

 

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

The "rest were blinded" represents the unbelieving Jews. That's the part of Israel which God allowed to be deceived away from The Gospel, even as it still is with the majority of them today. And Paul even tells us they didn't stumble so that they should fall, meaning their stumbling is not permanent but only temporary, and he covers more of that further on. A very important fact from Paul there is how God gave them that "spirit of slumber" so the majority of Jews would be blinded away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Rom 11:18-20
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
KJV

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

The unbelieving Jews were broken off because of unbelief on Jesus. But God is able to graff them in again, IF they do not remain in unbelief. When would they be able to NOT remain in unbelief? Only when God takes away that "spirit of slumber" He put upon them.

 

Rom 11:25-31
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
KJV

By God's mercy upon us Gentiles, for sending The Gospel also to us, offering us His Salvation through His Son, the unbelieving Jew also will be offered God's mercy when He removes their blindness, and they choose to turn to Christ Jesus. Paul tells us when that will be a possibility for the majority of Jews, i.e., when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in", which he then links to OT Scripture like in Psalms 14:7, Isaiah 59:20, which is pointing to the time of Jesus' return.

 

Zech 12:9-11
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
KJV

Who would that be those who pierced Him will look upon, and mourn for Him? This Zech.12:9-11 Scripture is not about the time of Jesus' crucifixion, it's past that time. This is about the Jews who were against Him, and agreed to have Him crucified. At this point in the future, these Jews will have the "spirit of slumber" removed which God put upon them, and then they will understand who our Lord Jesus is, and that they crucified The Son of God. That guilt laid upon one with their knowing about it, who wouldn't mourn for Jesus? (some of them won't, but will choose to perish).

 

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"
KJV

This example might be a bit more difficult for some. When our Lord Jesus was carrying His cross to be crucified, those Jewish women in Jerusalem wept for Him. But our Lord Jesus told them to not weep for Him, but for themselves, AND their children (i.e., future generations of the Jews in Jerusalem). The reason He gave was His parable of the barren woman of Isaiah 54.

In the parable of the barren woman, it's the barren woman who's womb never bare (never with child) which eventually had more children than the married wife. Physically that is not possible, which is how this is a parable or allegory, and not literal. It's about spiritual harlotry against Christ. In 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul warned us against being deceived, as he wants to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". He meant that in the spiritual sense, as spiritual virgins married to Jesus. We are to remain faithful waiting on Him to return, and not play the spiritual harlot falling away to another instead. Thus the 'barren woman' is blessed for waiting for Jesus to come. Those NOT barren didn't wait, and instead played the harlot, and it's those that our Lord Jesus applied that to there in Luke 23 that wept for Him. That is why they say about the blessed barren woman, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, ...". It means at that point of Jesus' return, they will know how they messed up.

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Salty

[Salty]

39 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Me too. If you see well, you will see I only wrote what JESUS and His Apostle, Paul, said and prophesied about the nation of Israel. I said nothing of mine on Israel nation.

We shall see...

 

Quote

 

It is written: John 1:11-13 ´
11 He (JESUS) came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
12 But as many as received Him (Jews and Gentiles), to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: (that is JESUS, as is written in Acts 4:v.12)
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

Yes, "this remnant represents a remnant of all 12 tribes" , whose number is written in Revelation 7:4-8 
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes (12) of the children of Israel.

Isaiah prophesied:
Romans 9: 27-33
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (144.000)
28 For he (God)  will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.  (From the nation of Israel, whose great city - Jerusalem or Aholibah - is actually Sodom and Egypt spiritually (Rev.11:v.8), "except the Lord of hosts had left a seed"  - 144.000 "Paul and Christ's Apostles included",-  the nation of Israel would disappear being destroyed as was Sodoma and Gomorrah).
 
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

I never denied that our Lord Jesus was rejected by His Own. Heck, the Jews agreed with the scribes and Pharisees to crucify Him!

But their act did NOT seal their destruction, as you obviously wrongly...  suggest. Who made you judge and jury? You are not God, and certainly do NOT know His thoughts, like you accuse me of!!!

 

These verses are about the unbelieving Jews mainly, but ALSO including ANY born of the seed of Jacob that refuses Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah:

Rom 11:7-12
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
KJV

 

If you are saying those above Romans 11:7-12 verses is NOT about God Himself putting that "spirit of slumber" upon those of Israel that rejected Jesus, then you bear FALSE WITNESS AGAINST GOD AND HIS WORD.

And these following verses also...

Rom 11:23-29
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

 

They are CHOSEN by God, you white-washed wall! You cannot condemn them to the "lake of fire", you false mortared wall that will come down with God's storm!

 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, Salty said:

Read the end of Zechariah 12, and what Jesus said to the daughters of Jerusalem that wept for Him in Luke 23. Then compare that to the last part of Romans 11 about Israel in part that God blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete.

God is not going to destroy any soul in the lake of fire that He Himself blinded away from The Gospel. The majority of Jews He blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. When Jesus returns, the Jew's blindness will be removed, and that Zech.12 and Luke 23 event will happen. They will wish for the hills and mountains to 'fall on us', because of their shame of not accepting Jesus as Messiah. And they will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future thousand years reign (Ezek.44). But is God going to destroy them? Not those of them who turn to Jesus in the Millennium.

 

 

God never blinded them to the point that they could not receive the Gospel and be saved. The Bible doesn't say that God kept anyone from the Gospel.  

[Salty]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

God never blinded them to the point that they could not receive the Gospel and be saved. The Bible doesn't say that God kept anyone from the Gospel.  

That God blinded them with the "spirit of slumber" away from accepting The Gospel is EXACTLY what Apostle Paul was saying in Romans 11. The Scripture there is unmistakable. Those who don't believe what Apostle Paul said there are what he called, BOASTERS.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, Salty said:

That God blinded them with the "spirit of slumber" away from accepting The Gospel is EXACTLY what Apostle Paul was saying in Romans 11. The Scripture there is unmistakable. Those who don't believe what Apostle Paul said there are what he called, BOASTERS.

That blindness was not to the point that they could not receive.  Note that Paul said it was a partial blindness.  It was not total blindness.  God never kept the Jewish people from receiving the Gospel.

Romans 9, 10, and 11 comprise Paul's most explicit appeal to the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people.  That would be pointless if God blinded them to the point that they could not receive it, if God was actually preventing them from being saved.   In fact, to say that God was preventing the Jewish people to be saved is a libel against God.

[Salty]

22 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That blindness was not to the point that they could not receive. 

Well, yes it is, even to this day. Paul told you WHEN the "spirit of slumber" God put upon them will be removed. Didn't you bother to read that from Apostle Paul?

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV

Are your preachers teaching you something else? If so, why would they disregard what Paul said there?

 

Quote

Romans 9, 10, and 11 comprise Paul's most explicit appeal to the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people.  That would be pointless if God blinded them to the point that they could not receive it, if God was actually preventing them from being saved.   In fact, to say that God was preventing the Jewish people to be saved is a libel against God.

2 Cor 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
KJV

Paul showed there that even the children of Israel in Moses' day couldn't understand what God was doing back then.

You can make up all sorts of twists and turns to get away from the Romans 11 Scripture by Paul, but Paul was stern about us not boasting against the Israel in part which have been blinded.

And for WHAT reason were they blinded according to Paul???

Rom 11:28
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
KJV

Rom 11:30-32
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Rom 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

Anyone who boasts against God's Will there according to Apostle Paul is an apostate away from Christ Jesus. Any soul who condemns someone whom God Himself blinded for His Purpose does not know The Word of God nor what God's Plan of Salvation is actually about.

Even in the future Millennium in Ezekiel 44, we are shown the Levites which went astray when Israel went astray, will be given the menial duties within God's House. They will not be allowed to serve Christ at His table. Only the Zadok (the Just) will be allowed to approach Jesus in that time. Anyone saying those Levites will be destroyed does not know our Heavenly Father's Will, nor His Word of Truth.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Salty

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Salty said:

Well, yes it is, even to this day. Paul told you WHEN the "spirit of slumber" God put upon them will be removed. Didn't you bother to read that from Apostle Paul?

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV

Are your preachers teaching you something else? If so, why would they disregard what Paul said there?

You are misinterpreting Paul.   Paul did not say that God doesn't want Jews to get saved.   That is just ridiculous.   Maybe you have a problem with Jews?

2 Cor 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
KJV

Paul showed there that even the children of Israel in Moses' day couldn't understand what God was doing back then.

You can make up all sorts of twists and turns to get away from the Romans 11 Scripture by Paul, but Paul was stern about us not boasting against the Israel in part which have been blinded.

Quote

 

And for WHAT reason were they blinded according to Paul???

Rom 11:28
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
KJV

Rom 11:30-32
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Rom 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

Anyone who boasts against God's Will there according to Apostle Paul is an apostate away from Christ Jesus. Any soul who condemns someone whom God Himself blinded for His Purpose does not know The Word of God nor what God's Plan of Salvation is actually about.

 

Anyone who argues that God is preventing Jews from being saved is not reading Romans 11 correctly.

 

Quote

Even in the future Millennium in Ezekiel 44, we are shown the Levites which went astray when Israel went astray, will be given the menial duties within God's House. They will not be allowed to serve Christ at His table. Only the Zadok (the Just) will be allowed to approach Jesus in that time. Anyone saying those Levites will be destroyed does not know our Heavenly Father's Will, nor His Word of Truth.

What is your opinion of Jews?

[Salty]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You are misinterpreting Paul.   Paul did not say that God doesn't want Jews to get saved.   That is just ridiculous.   Maybe you have a problem with Jews?

I am NOT misinterpreting Paul.

Why do you DISREGARD what Paul said? and even what The Father and His Son said about putting that blindness upon them?

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV

 

Where's all the NT preaching revealing Paul preaching that those in Christ were chosen from the foundation of the world? And especially about God calling out a people who would believe on Jesus?

If God Himself blinded you, I guarantee you will be subject to confusion in The Scriptures and not understand that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah, just as Paul was showing in 2 Corinthians 3.

 

And what did Jesus say to His Apostles when they asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables? Jesus told them that they were blessed, and that they had 'eyes to see', which means the blindness of Rom.11 was not upon them.

Matt 13:11-16
11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
KJV

 

Where Jesus was quoting from:

Isa 6:9-10
9 And He said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
KJV