The anti-Christ, Jew or Gentile?

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

 

Regarding your first point, note that those nations are not just northern, Ethiopia and Libya are from the south of Israel.  Persia from the east. So the Gog confederation is from all over.

Regarding your second point, the bible is Israel-centric. The centre of the world is the Middle East. The word "earth" has a primary meaning of "land" and not "planet earth" in both the original Greek and the English of the KJV. Other translations have since used the word "earth" after it changed its meaning from land/soil in the King James era,  to mean "planet earth".   This current usage of the word "earth" as a translation for the Greek word "ge" is wrong, because a true commitment to the original Greek would reveal a wider meaning of the word as land/soil/earth's continents rather than "planet earth"..  

Joel 2 also describes this northern army, but in context of the second coming/day of the Lord.  And so the northern army of Gog with its allies from all over, could very well be the same army as that of the day of the Lord/Armageddon. There are multiple matching facts between the Ezekiel 38/39 war and the final war of Armageddon, not least which is the repentance of a sinful Israel as described in Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39. 

 

 

Hi Argosy,

Yes you are right, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia & Libya are not northern nations & they are not part of the Northern Federation of Russia, however they do go with them to battle.

Thank you for the `earth, land` details, however God`s word tells us that -

` For behold, in those days & at that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah & Jerusalem, I will also gather ALL NATIONS, & bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat; & I will enter into judgment with them there on account of my people Israel.` (Joel 3: 1 & 2)

Then I see the Joel 2 war & Joel 3 war are different -

Joel 2 - `I will remove far from you the northern army & will drive him away into a barren & desolate land,...` (Joel 2: 20)

Joel 3 - ` Let the nations be awakened & come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations,...` (Joel 3: 12)

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Does it matter?

Hi shiloh357,

Haven`t talked to you for a while. Now that is an interesting question. Obviously for our salvation it is of no importance, however.....as God has put these details in His word I would say it matters to Him. Thus for us to understand how God will bring the close of this era to an end with all its details, then it is an important detail. The nationality of the anti-Christ is thus known to God, & where & how he rises to power. These events are unfolding before us & we are not to be ignorant. I, personally find it is very helpful when explaining to people what is happening in the world today. God has given us great details & shows He not only knew before hand but desires for us to know also.

regards, Marilyn.

[Ezra]

9 hours ago, other one said:

Erdogan proclaimed himself as God.

Based on what Erdogan's been up to during his reign, he  may well be demon-possessed. But the Satan-possessed Antichrist will most definitely claim to be God.

[Ezra]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Does it matter?

It matters to Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews.  One of their fundamental beliefs is that they await the Messiah.  If the Antichrist is a Gentile, he cannot possibly present himself as the true Messiah, and indeed, as Elohim (the Hebrew God).

[Guest Robert]

Rev 13 says that the Beast came from the sea; typically, sea references in prophecy usually denoted the gentiles. Biblical support for this comes from Daniel 9:

" “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And ts end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. " (Daniel 9:26, NASB, emphasis mine)

The Romans are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem  the second time around; this seems to indicate pretty clearly that the AC will be of Roman descent. That would seem to support that the fact that the AC would be gentile.

The second beast (the false prophet), is said by scripture to come out of the earth or land (which in prophecy often represented Israel). When the Beast takes full control, he pretty much backstabs Israel, and I think the False Prophet helps him do it.I'm not goign to go all out and say that I'm absolutely sure the FP would be Jewish, but I'm sure that the AC will be a gentile. Keep in mind also that while Israel may accept him as a great political leader, scripture never says he is accepted as their Messiah.

Edited July 21, 2016 by RobertS

[Steve_S]

5 minutes ago, RobertS said:

Rev 13 says that the Beast came from the sea; typically, sea references in prophecy usually denoted the gentiles. The second beast (the false prophet), is said by scripture to come out of the earth or land (which in prophecy represented Israel). When the Beast takes full control, he pretty much backstabs Israel, and I think the False Prophet helps him do it.

I tend to strongly doubt he is a Jew as well, but, I suppose it's possible. I agree with your assertion on Revelation 13.

As far as him backstabbing israel, that hinges on what "confirms a covenant" means in context.  If this means to make a treaty, which is my suspicion, as well as yours, then it seems unlikely he's a Jew, or at the least, not one from Israel, as one usually do not sign treaties with people they are already ruling (though, I fully admit it could mean something else). Another interesting aspect here is that it mentions that he will "confirm a covenant with many" for one week. In this context, that is seven years. That would mean a treaty (or some other agreement or promise) of seven years' duration being signed/confirmed to begin the tribulation.

Dan 9:26  "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27  Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

There's also a lot of conquest sort of stuff going on with him in Daniel 11. Assuming Daniel 7:35 is the pivot-point that ends the narrative of antiochus epiphanes reign and begins the narrative of the reign of the man of sin (antiochus epiphanes probably being the biblical archetype of the man of sin), then from that point forward until the end of Daniel 11, it doesn't seem like a Jewish ruler is being described, one verse in particular, to me:

Dan 11:41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.

If he is a Jewish ruler from Israel, why would he need to "enter the glorious land." Again, there are other possibilities, but it doesn't seem to me that he's a jew. I tend to try to keep an open mind on things like this and try to stay buried in the scriptures, just so i don't block myself off to possibilities. Still, though, I'd vote mideastern muslim (i'd put that one at probably 50 to 60 percent likelihood just based on the feeling I get from reading the overall narrative over multiple books, chapters, and verses) or european, if i had a vote.

[ARGOSY]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Argosy,

Yes you are right, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia & Libya are not northern nations & they are not part of the Northern Federation of Russia, however they do go with them to battle.

Thank you for the `earth, land` details, however God`s word tells us that -

` For behold, in those days & at that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah & Jerusalem, I will also gather ALL NATIONS, & bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat; & I will enter into judgment with them there on account of my people Israel.` (Joel 3: 1 & 2)

Then I see the Joel 2 war & Joel 3 war are different -

Joel 2 - `I will remove far from you the northern army & will drive him away into a barren & desolate land,...` (Joel 2: 20)

Joel 3 - ` Let the nations be awakened & come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations,...` (Joel 3: 12)

 

Marilyn.

You didn't quote the full quote of Joel 2:20.  A careful analysis of that final war as described on the "day of the Lord" will show that God intervenes when the front columns of the attacking army have reached into Jerusalem. The army is so huge , as described below it stretches across Israel from the Meditteranean to the Dead Sea.  Across the northern area of Israel is a massive valley containing the town of Megiddo which sits on a small hill, hence the name "Armageddon", the hill of Megiddo.. This valley stretches from the Meditteranean to the Jordan valley. Further south , just outside of Jerusalem between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea is the valley of Jehosaphat, right in the mountains of Judah. So whichever prophecy concerns that great war described on the day of the Lord, is consistent with a northern attack coming across the valley of Megiddo, down the Jordan to the Dead Sea, and stopping in the Jerusalem area when the front columns have reached Jerusalem/the mountains/Jehosaphat. Its all the same war,

I will drive the northern horde far from you,
    pushing it into a parched and barren land;
its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea
    and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea.
And its stench will go up;
    its smell will rise.”

[Guest Robert]

3 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I tend to strongly doubt he is a Jew as well, but, I suppose it's possible. I agree with your assertion on Revelation 13.

As far as him backstabbing israel, that hinges on what "confirms a covenant" means in context.  If this means to make a treaty, which is my suspicion, as well as yours, then it seems unlikely he's a Jew, or at the least, not one from Israel, as one usually do not sign treaties with people they are already ruling (though, I fully admit it could mean something else). Another interesting aspect here is that it mentions that he will "confirm a covenant with many" for one week. In this context, that is seven years. That would mean a treaty (or some other agreement or promise) of seven years' duration being signed/confirmed to begin the tribulation.

Dan 9:26  "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27  Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

There's also a lot of conquest sort of stuff going on with him in Daniel 11. Assuming Daniel 7:35 is the pivot-point that ends the narrative of antiochus epiphanes reign and begins the narrative of the reign of the man of sin (antiochus epiphanes probably being the biblical archetype of the man of sin), then from that point forward until the end of Daniel 11, it doesn't seem like a Jewish ruler is being described, one verse in particular, to me:

Dan 11:41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.

If he is a Jewish ruler from Israel, why would he need to "enter the glorious land." Again, there are other possibilities, but it doesn't seem to me that he's a jew. I tend to try to keep an open mind on things like this and try to stay buried in the scriptures, just so i don't block myself off to possibilities. Still, though, I'd vote mideastern muslim (i'd put that one at probably 50 to 60 percent likelihood just based on the feeling I get from reading the overall narrative over multiple books, chapters, and verses) or european, if i had a vote.

Like I said: the AC isn't going to be Jewish according to scripture. There's a probability the False Prophet will be (the second beast), and it isn't the FP that would be reentering "the Glorious Land", but the AC.

My thought on this (not scripture but just a thought) is that the FP may well be the Prime Minister or a high official in Israel while the AC rises in the ranks. That would make sense for a deal to be brokered, with the FP working on the side of Israel and the AC working on the rest of the planet's behalf. Then when the AC comes into full power in Rev 13, the FP pretty much sides with him and "backstabs" Israel by helping the AC break the covenant. But admittedly, that's just conjecture on my part and I don't think that has biblical support.

From what scripture does say, the AC would be from the people that destroyed Jerusalem: Antiochus didn't destroy Jerusalem (although he did a pretty good job of making a mess of things!), but the Romans sure did.

You bring up some very good points Steve.

[Sister]

Nahum 1:11   There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.
 

[Eoreris]

The called anti christ must full fill these things  - A- be so deceptive that the Church falls for him anyway as they see no hope of future for their family if things go on like they are..

1 He must speak great things - Both Daniel and Revelation makes this clear several times..  - such as "Let,s make us great again" He might say something like that...

2 He will be one who has never (Repented) But say's he will if he ever does something wrong  - Which is blasphemy as (Only) Jesus had no need to repent.. Thus with this alone he makes himself out as a messiah or god sitting in a temple of God- Which (by the way) he has already done with top name preachers praying over him on TV in a church and (Not) to get him to repent but instead to (Anoint him)

3 His name must be a (Name of blashphemy)  He has this.. His first name by the dictionary means (World rule) Only Christ will be the World rule and wonderful counselor.  Thus this name technically full fills this by (Logic) and (It is what it is and means what it means)  -Note - The first beast first name is simular but starts with an (R) and he was the 2nd king and is the (one) who.s spirit (Comes up from the abyss) to enter into the 2nd beast..  His name adds up to 666 letters if you add (All) the kings of this nation's letters of their names together including adding any (Jr) letters (Full official names..  This 2nd king's blasphemy is to start the ball rolling with making it known that the World should unite in case of an alien threat invasion that the World would come together to overcome it..  His dead soul will enter into the 8th king and direct him like a puppet to make a 10 nation coalition to fight this coming threat.

4 He will win his throne by a (Small) hardcore people that will put him over the top that never give up..  These are rugged individual people that most have never voted and they are types that never answer and participate in phone election polls

5 He will be (NOT) receive the (HONOR) of this throne by his companions..  They will say he is not worthy of the position..  Some will make fools of themselves by not endorsing him, others will (Hold their nose) and vote for him but make a scene.

6  He will be (Wondered) about..  This man will be the topic of wonder as the media has never seen anyone like this or can figure him out.  He will be the biggest reality show the World has ever seen.

7  His (Seat) - his hometown (pad) you might say will be in the center of the Mystery babylon  (Greatest city on Earth) Economically and surrounded by water and large cargo ship traffic from all over the World without end . 

8  And finally -  He will be an (Eighth king) after a succession of 7 blasphemous ones before him that (start) this blasphemous 7 head countdown..  And the (7th) one will only rule a (Short space) just before he (The eighth) takes the throne..  This 7th king (it says clearly) (Must) continue a short space.. Meaning he (must by duty) take over and continue the 6th king's term (The one who reigns now) and finish it out as the 6th king will not finish his term.   Each one of these 7 kings have blasphemed God in one way or another.. For instance the (5th one) celebrated a big war victory on a ship he landed on with a speech.. His last words at the end of his speech quoted Isaiah "The captives are set free"  -- Just so you understand what a blasphemy is in God's hearing is.. This 5th king ended his speech with that.. He did not mention that one day Jesus christ 2nd coming will full fill this scripture and this (his war victory) is an example ... NO!  - he made it sound like (HE) full filled this holy of holiest verses.  God (Will not stand) for these blasphemous kings that do not give him (By name) the glory  because of their political correctness.  There are also only 7 mountain ranges in this nation the woman sits on..

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Eoreris