Young Earth/Old Earth

[Guest Thallasa]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There was nothing wrong with knowing both good and evil.   The sin that got them banished was disobeying God's commandment not to eat of the tree.  The tree was created by God, so the tree was not sinful or was eating from it inherently sinful.  It was the sin of disobedience that caused the fall of man.  Satan tempted them with four lies and they chose to believe Satan instead of God.

By the way, the term "evil" the way it is used in this passage doesn't necessarily refer to moral evil (sin).  The word for evil in Hebrew is also used in various contexts to refer to what is mundane, or ordinary.  The phrase "good and evil" as used in Genesis 2, can be understood to refer to what is sacred vs. what is secular, if that makes sense.

  Thankyou ,it is all interesting .

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On 6/10/2016 at 4:22 AM, shiloh357 said:

But that is not what is happening on this thread.  No one is calling you or anyone else heretics.   

that's great! then you agree with me completely! 

 

On 6/10/2016 at 4:22 AM, shiloh357 said:

Your agenda seems to be, based on how you have interacted on this thread, to tell people that they cannot hold to a literal interpretation of Genesis 1.

that's not so great! 
then you completely misunderstand & mischaracterize me. 

all i've said, and i've consistently said the same thing for 40 years, is that we can't be dogmatic about this either way, and it's nothing to judge anyone over. you can hold to an absolutely strict, literal interpretation of everything in Genesis 1, or you can believe that there are gaps in the narrative and that some of it is figurative, poetic language, and you can be faithful to the text either way. 

the YEC viewpoint seems to be pretty well represented here. no need for another "yes-man" on that front. some of the YEC-ers probably could make do with it being pointed out that OEC is also a legitimate view of the matter that doesn't deny God the Creator nor does it deny scripture. 


if you think i'm arguing with anyone about YEC vs OEC than you've not comprehended anything i wrote at all. you're setting up a straw man and yelling at it, and pretending it's me. 


 

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, post said:

all i've said, and i've consistently said the same thing for 40 years, is that we can't be dogmatic about this either way, and it's nothing to judge anyone over.
 

You have provided not one sound reason why I cannot be dogmatic about God creating the earth in six days.   You have declared that I can't be dogmatic, but you have not provided one solid reason why I cannot dogmatically claim that God's word is true in what it claims.

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you can hold to an absolutely strict, literal interpretation of everything in Genesis 1, or you can believe that there are gaps in the narrative and that some of it is figurative, poetic language, and you can be faithful to the text either way. 

No one can be faithful to the text if they hold to the Gap Theory because the Gap Theory is extra-biblical.   To hold that, you have to go outside the Bible.   You are not being faithful to the text if you are adding things that are not there.

[post]

 

On 6/10/2016 at 4:22 AM, shiloh357 said:

You have repeatedly misquoted me. If anyone is not being respected here, it is me.

i have never misquoted you. i have quoted you verbatim. 

look, you said that you have "exactly the understanding that God intended" of Genesis 1. that's not a misquote, but i don't feel like digging through pages looking for it right now. 
now you're admitting that your understanding isn't perfect. so you must think that God doesn't intend for you to have perfect understanding. 

but you go further and say that "no Christian has any excuse not to understand" Genesis 1 in exactly the same way that you do. so now you're not just saying that your understanding is "exactly as God intended" you're saying that there is zero legitimate basis for any believer to have any other understanding.  

what is it when you maintain that no Christian can possibly believe other than a certain specific thing? 
oh yeah -- that's what you call "heresy" if someone professes Christ but believes otherwise on that point. 

 

so you're trying to have it both ways:
oh your understanding is exactly as God intends and there is no flaw in it, but you are certainly humble and don't claim to have "perfect understanding" not when you put it that way, heavens no. 
and:
oh there is no excuse whatsoever for a believer to understand this passage in any other way except to be in agreement with you - if they don't see things just as you do, well, they are without excuse and probably a "liberal" trying to make excuses to fit "evolution" or "science" or some other "wicked thing" into their belief system.
yeah but if you put it that way, no heavens no i'm not calling anyone a heretic or condemning them or questioning their belief. 

what i see is that you're being double-minded about this, and trying to pass it off like i'm the illogical attacker here. 
unless you took back those statements about no one having "any excuse" for disagreeing with your understanding, and i missed it. 
 

[post]

21 hours ago, Thallasa said:

Sorry to if I seemed rude ,but tiredness comes over all of us .

not at all, not rude or anything & no need to apologize! 

i didn't understand you correctly - and you corrected me  

Whoever heeds discipline shows the way to life,
but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.
(Proverbs 10:17) 

i'm just sorry i couldn't give you a better answer - it's not something i've given much thought to.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, post said:

 

i have never misquoted you. i have quoted you verbatim. 


 

No, I cited in my response to you yesterday where you misquoted me, and where you have repeatedly tried to assign to me a view that says that I think I understand the Bible perfectly.   You have repeatedly accused me of that even after I have repeatedly tried to explain that such is not what I think or believe.  But you have persisted in that false accusation because you need something to knock down.  It is an unfair debate strategy on your part.

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look, you said that you have "exactly the understanding that God intended" of Genesis 1. that's not a misquote, but i don't feel like digging through pages looking for it right now. 

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No, I never said that.   I said that believe what the text says, that God created the earth in six days.   I believe that God's word can be trusted as written.  You can't seem to tell the difference between what I said and what you keep trying to assign to me.

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but you go further and say that "no Christian has any excuse not to understand" Genesis 1 in exactly the same way that you do.

No, that is a misquote.  You are adding to what I said.  And I even quoted myself verbatim yesterday and you still persist.  I said that no Christian has any excuse not to believe the Bible as written in reference to Genesis 1.   It says what it says.   No Christian has any excuse for trying to deny what it says, to offer up an evolutionary alternative as many do.   They will be held accountable by God for rejecting what he says, and instead using science as the infallible standard by which to judge the Bible.   That's what I said in my first post.   But you decided to spin it to suit yourself.  

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what is it when you maintain that no Christian can possibly believe other than a certain specific thing? 
oh yeah -- that's what you call "heresy" if someone professes Christ but believes otherwise on that point. 

No, that is not what heresy is.  Heresy is when someone denies the core essential teachings of Scripture.   For example, denying the deity of Jesus, denying the virgin birth, salvation by works, claiming that Jesus did not come in the flesh, denying the resurrection...    Those are examples of heresy.   You are trying redefine heresy in order to give yourself something to use against me, but you clearly do  not understand what heresy is.

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so you're trying to have it both ways:
oh your understanding is exactly as God intends and there is no flaw in it, but you are certainly humble and don't claim to have "perfect understanding" not when you put it that way, heavens no. 

Another false accusation from you.   I never said that my understanding is as exactly as God intends and totally flawless.   What I said is that the Bible is flawless and I believe what it says, as it is written.   I have NEVER said even half of what you have accused me of.

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oh there is no excuse whatsoever for a believer to understand this passage in any other way except to be in agreement with you - if they don't see things just as you do, well, they are without excuse and probably a "liberal" trying to make excuses to fit "evolution" or "science" or some other "wicked thing" into their belief system.
yeah but if you put it that way, no heavens no i'm not calling anyone a heretic or condemning them or questioning their belief. 

Wrong, there is no excuse for a Christian to reject what God plainly says in His word.  It's not about me.   It has never been about me.  It is about staying true to what God has clearly stated in His word. 

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what i see is that you're being double-minded about this, and trying to pass it off like i'm the illogical attacker here. 
unless you took back those statements about no one having "any excuse" for disagreeing with your understanding, and i missed it. 

I don't think you're an illogical attacker.  I think you are being dishonest about my remarks and that you are purposely twisting what I say in defiance of every attempt I have made to clarify and re-clarify.   I think you are being unfair with me, and that you are really not able or not willing to correctly frame my position in your responses because if you did that, you wouldn't have nearly as much to say to me. 

[post]

24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

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look, you said that you have "exactly the understanding that God intended" of Genesis 1. that's not a misquote, but i don't feel like digging through pages looking for it right now. 

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No, I never said that.

here you go, let me help you: 

On 6/5/2016 at 4:03 PM, shiloh357 said:

I understand it the way God intended it to understand it.  He is not shy about making sure we understand.  He even repeats himself over and over to make sure we understand.  There is no excuse for a Christian to not understand Genesis 1.  No excuse at all.

 

maybe you have trouble expressing yourself, but i'm not mischaracterizing what you've said
((though i admit my quote-from memory isn't 100% accurate)).
i don't alter what's in the quote box other than to delete what's not relevant to what i'm replying to. this is verbatim what you said.

from what you say in this quote and throughout this thread, i can see plainly that you believe your comprehension of the creation narrative is 100%. i suggest it's possible that it's flawed, that some of what's written is not 100% literal; it could be a figurative way of speaking in some cases, and you rail on that it's not. translation: you believe your understanding is not flawed, i.e. "perfect" 


if anyone wants to follow that quote-path above, so they can go through that whole conversation and see clearly what Shiloh means by "understand" when he says that word, have at it. 

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, post said:

here you go, let me help you: 

 

maybe you have trouble expressing yourself, but i'm not mischaracterizing what you've said
((though i admit my quote-from memory isn't 100% accurate)).
i don't alter what's in the quote box other than to delete what's not relevant to what i'm replying to. this is verbatim what you said.

from what you say in this quote and throughout this thread, i can see plainly that you believe your comprehension of the creation narrative is 100%. i suggest it's possible that it's flawed, that some of what's written is not 100% literal; it could be a figurative way of speaking in some cases, and you rail on that it's not. translation: you believe your understanding is not flawed, i.e. "perfect" 


if anyone wants to follow that quote-path above, so they can go through that whole conversation and see clearly what Shiloh means by "understand" when he says that word, have at it. 

No, you added to what I said. You filled my words with what I did not intend to communicate in that statement.  You accused me of understanding it exactly the way God intended and that I had a perfect understanding of the text.   That is not what I said, and you are taking my remark and filling it with the meaning you need in order to make your false accusation stand.

My point was that God intended for us to understand that he made the earth in six days.  I showed you from the Hebrew why six days means, six 24-hour days.   That what I think God intended to communicate.  But that does NOT mean that I think that I understand EVERYTHING about the passage as God intended.  There is light we have not received and there may be theological truth in it that I am not aware of.    I understand that God intended to communicate in plain easy to understand verbiage.  

God intended for us to understand that he created the earth in six days, and that is what the text says and that is how I understand it.   But you have taken my words and assigned values to them that are far and away NOT what I intended.  

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, post said:

here you go, let me help you: 

maybe you have trouble expressing yourself, but i'm not mischaracterizing what you've said

Dogmatically (Incontrovertibly True)

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

God Laid Down Creation

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11

Yet Men

And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jeremiah 18:12

Walk

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

~

Beloved, The Living God Does Not Need Our Help

So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'" Luke 17:10 (Berean Study Bible)

Yet We Desperately Need Him

nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. Acts 17:25 (English Standard Version)

The God Of Miracles 

Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him.

Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping.

The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

 

The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!” Matthew 8:23-27 (New American Standard Bible)

The God Of Calvary

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[post]

every scripture is profitable for instruction, edification and for gaining wisdom and insight. 
what can we learn from this? 


Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 
Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
(John 11:9-15)