What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Mike 2]

Posted 14 minutes ago · Report post

21 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Jesus was not deity, Jesus was a body.

What kind of a bizarre concept is this? Perhaps you should study the Chalcedonian Creed, which is very helpful (other than calling Mary "the mother of God".

21 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

Ezra, you took that quote out of context and in so doing have created unessesary confusion

...was Jesus born?

Did Jesus die on a cross?

Yes......a body did both.

We are in the middle of a discussion about how we can lump all the things of "Jesus" in to one and get confused when we talk about the trinity.

Looks like you just got hooked into thinking in one way ....

....gotta separate the spiritual from the physical otherwise you're right it is a bizarre concept, in fact so is the trinity.

Read the sentence directly after the one you quoted

In fact, I feel it's so important I've edited this to include it below

"I was talking to closest friend earlier about how simply referring to "Jesus" can be confusing. I think this is a good example.

Jesus was not deity, Jesus was a body. The Son living inside the body was deity. We have to be clear when we refer to Jesus what aspect of him we are talking about... The Son?, the Messiah?, the body walking along the road?..."

(I was responding to someone confusing the Father  (one of the three in the trinity) and God (all of the trinity) in  Php 2:6  who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped. 
in italics below )

Having said that ...THE WORD (the Son) did not take on human form because ... " Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father" ....That's not what the text says and believing it to refer to the Father creates the confusion I have been trying to address.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Mike 2

[Ezra]

42 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

In fact, I feel it's so important I've edited this to include it below

"I was talking to closest friend earlier about how simply referring to "Jesus" can be confusing. I think this is a good example.

Jesus was not deity, Jesus was a body. The Son living inside the body was deity. We have to be clear when we refer to Jesus what aspect of him we are talking about... The Son?, the Messiah?, the body walking along the road?

This is exactly what I was referring to.  Christians do not isolate the body of Christ from Christ. Body, soul, and spirit are all one integral Man (Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, God the Word, God the Son).

The only way to properly understand (and yet not fully understand) Christ is that after His birth He was always fully God and fully sinless man at one and the same time. Of course it is a mystery, therefore it is called "the Mystery of Godliness" (1 Tim 3:16).

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh [a human body], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[Mike 2]

44 minutes ago, Ezra said:

This is exactly what I was referring to.  Christians do not isolate the body of Christ from Christ. Body, soul, and spirit are all one integral Man (Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, God the Word, God the Son).

The only way to properly understand (and yet not fully understand) Christ is that after His birth He was always fully God and fully sinless man at one and the same time. Of course it is a mystery, therefore it is called "the Mystery of Godliness" (1 Tim 3:16).

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh [a human body], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

We are talking about the trinity.

The Father, The Son The Holy Spirit...all together are God

Joh_4:24  God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." 

In our discussion we have been looking at how and why God, who is spirit, interacts with the physical world.

To do that we have to separate the two and that's why we are differentiating between the different aspects of Jesus.

When we use one common term we get confused about how the trinity works together.

That's what I like about forums like this...different understandings can be expressed.

God was manifest in the flesh [a human body]

I want to hilite your quote  God was manifest in the flesh

In .....the flesh

I agree with you God was in the flesh, but,...... here we go again, he was not the flesh..that's created and God is not created. He was IN the flesh.

This can be important when discussing the trinity because most people, like you just did, try to understand the spiritual in physical ways and get confused.

How can 3 persons be in one....it's a mystery...........

......if we don't distinguish the physical from spiritual

 

That's what this discussion has been about

 

The mystery to me, is not the process God uses, Father, Holy Spirit, Son, we see that in ourselves, it's how he actually creates something out of nothing

Edited January 5, 2017 by Mike 2

[other one]

Just keep in mind that what Jesus was before he became Jesus in the flesh was not the Father

[Mike 2]

1 minute ago, other one said:

Just keep in mind that what Jesus was before he became Jesus in the flesh was not the Father

I agree

He was/ is The Son/ The Word

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

We are talking about the trinity.

Correct. Once we see that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and that He was the eternal Word of God, it is quite easy to accept the doctrine of the Trinity, since the Holy Spirit is also shown to be God.  

4 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

I agree with you God was in the flesh, but,...... here we go again, he was not the flesh..that's created and God is not created. He was IN the flesh.

Now you are trying to explain what needs to be left alone. "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.  The Word took human form and full humanity upon Himself. The Creator took the form of the creature without altering His Deity. But the body, soul, and spirit of Jesus were one integrated whole Man.

4 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

How can 3 persons be in one....it's a mystery...........

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter.  Humans beings are not required to explain the Trinity but simply believe it and proclaim it (primarily through believer's baptism).

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[angels4u]

20 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Correct. Once we see that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and that He was the eternal Word of God, it is quite easy to accept the doctrine of the Trinity, since the Holy Spirit is also shown to be God.  

Now you are trying to explain what needs to be left alone. "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.  The Word took human form and full humanity upon Himself. The Creator took the form of the creature without altering His Deity. But the body, soul, and spirit of Jesus were one integrated whole Man.

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter.  Humans beings are not required to explain the Trinity but simply believe it and proclaim it (primarily through believer's baptism).

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

 

Quote

Now you are trying to explain what needs to be left alone. "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.  The Word took human form and full humanity upon Himself. The Creator took the form of the creature without altering His Deity. But the body, soul, and spirit of Jesus were one integrated whole Man.

 

Amen!

[Mike 2]

21 hours ago, angels4u said:

Amen!

 

21 hours ago, angels4u said:

22 hours ago, Ezra said:

Correct. Once we see that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and that He was the eternal Word of God, it is quite easy to accept the doctrine of the Trinity, since the Holy Spirit is also shown to be God.  

Now you are trying to explain what needs to be left alone. "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.  The Word took human form and full humanity upon Himself. The Creator took the form of the creature without altering His Deity. But the body, soul, and spirit of Jesus were one integrated whole Man.

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter.  Humans beings are not required to explain the Trinity but simply believe it and proclaim it (primarily through believer's baptism).

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

 

Quote

Now you are trying to explain what needs to be left alone. "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.  and full humanity upon Himself. The Creator took the form of the creature without altering His Deity. But the body, soul, and spirit of Jesus were one integrated whole Man.

 

Amen!

"Humans beings are not required to explain the Trinity but simply believe it" 

How then do we answer a person there in front of us seeking to understand God when they ask how is it possible that Jesus has been alive through eternity past.

It confuses some people and we must be able to explain the difference between the physical and the spiritual.

I am not disagreeing with anything else you have said regarding the make up of the trinity, I am just saying we should learn how to answer that question rather than say "it's a mystery"...I happen to believe that one reason the trinity is considered a mystery is because we are trying to apply human physical understanding to something that is spiritual.

In fairness, the whole bible is made up of physical examples describing the spiritual, the parables Jesus used are very good examples. Jesus saying     "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (Joh_14:6)"....does not literally mean you go through his body, it has a spiritual meaning, to some it is obvious there is another meaning, but some people must be taught that. Jesus lost a lot of disciples because they could not separate the spiritual from the physical when he referred to eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

The truth is most mature Christians separate them without realizing it, often without understanding. 

I believe we have a responsibility when the opportunity presents itself, to learn how to describe that, so that we can guide each other to better understanding and remove confusion, especially for seekers or unbelievers that can't move forward because they get hung up on the trinity. 

"Humans beings are not required to explain the Trinity but simply believe it"  What are we to simply believe? 

Our present understanding of the trinity, in fact the term "trinity"is created by human beings and as such is not perfect . Where did you hear we are not required to explain it but just believe it?

We can understand the trinity, it's not a mystery. We find it a mystery because we are accepting a 1700 year old man made description who's intended meaning (persons) at the time is not defined the same way in today's language. We are stuck on that man made description because right from its creation anyone that thought differently was considered a heretic and killed, today you're just considered a heretic or from a cult. God doesn't change.....but man does and so do our definitions. 40 years ago I would have got my face slapped if I said 'you suck' to someone, not today, today it means 'you're not very good at that'.

You said-  "That's created" has no bearing on the subject.' ALL the members of the trinity are spirit, to consider anything  created as part of the spiritual is to introduce confusion. It has a tremendous bearing on the subject because the flesh is not part of the trinity and it is possible to confuse the flesh as having eternal existence and therefore hinder someone trying to understand.

You said- "Once we see that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh," In your statement here you yourself are distinguishing between spirit and physical.

I think this is a good example of the confusion that is created because we don't always realize the spiritual and physical separation. You appear to have done it in your statement above without knowing it. You have said 'whats created has no bearing on the subject', yet make a statement that requires separating the spirit from the created (physical) in order to understand . Is it that you don't really understand what you said ( I think you do understand) or, are you just repeating some variation of what you have heard over and over again without giving it any thought....like the 3 persons in one. This is not meant to be an insult , I am just taking the opportunity to highlight something we all do without realizing it, myself included.

The thing is, we can't always assume everyone picks up on that distinction and we should therefore be ready to explain it.....if we know how to.

We can do a disservice to people and to our Lord when we follow man made rules that are intended to bring us closer to God.... simply because "that's the way it's always been" (look at the teachers of the Law in the bible) especially when the rules are creating unnecessary problems in the body of Christ.

God cannot operate in the physical without all three, the Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son . Take one of them away and God cannot do anything in the physical. All of them are not the same, they all have a different function.

Put aside the man made definition of three "persons", forget about it, and that will not be a "mystery". 

I don't know why we are stuck on this persons thing.

I guess Jesus couldn't understand how the Jews of his time were stuck on the 30 some thousand man made "law" things that were keeping people from God.

----

Just trying to make my point that the trinity can be understood, it's not confusing, but we are stuck thinking in a way we have been told to think....

 I'm not trying to argue with anyone..... for all of us, we have to highlight what the other is saying and speak to how we see similarities or differences, the nature of the conversations here often require that it is mostly discussing our differences. 

Please please please let me know if I seem to be coming across as argumentative or write anything that seems hurtful.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Mike 2

[Mike 2]

On 5/31/2016 at 4:55 PM, Ezra said:

No we cannot. Human beings have souls, and when Christ took human form, He had a sinless soul (as well as a spirit). He referred to both.  At the same time, He was in the Father, and the Father was in Him.

But the Father is pure Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also pure Spirit, yet distinct from the Father. It is not for us to either speculate or to extrapolate to *comprehend* the incomprehensible.

On the other hand, man is a tripartite being -- spirit, soul, and body. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit have dead spirits. But the spirit is given primacy over the soul and the body, because only the spirit communicates with God and understands the things of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole (1) spirit and (2) soul and (3) body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Ezra,

If I may, I would like to add to what you said and apply it to understanding the trinity,

"On the other hand, man is a tripartite being -- spirit, soul, and body. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit have dead spirits. But the spirit is given primacy over the soul and the body, because only the spirit communicates with God and understands the things of God.'

I agree with what you say about the spirit communicating.

The Son communicates with the Father through the Holy Spirit and visa versa.  That's how "His will on earth as it is in heaven" works. It applies to us as well (in two ways which I won't get into in this post) 
 

I think you are referring to ; 1Co 2:11  Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit (notice how the thoughts and spirit are separate! M2). 1Co 2:12  Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.

Everything originates with the Father, the thoughts ("things of God"),.... bear with me here...

The Son "sees" the Father, through the Holy Spirit, then does the work in the world.....all together all three work as "God" (one God)

3 separate functions all within what is collectively God.

All working together so perfectly that when we look at any one of them we see they are 100% doing the work of God ....100% God.......but....

any ONE of them by themselves, without the other 2 is not wholly God, they can't be.

 Because God cannot act in the physical if you take any one of them away.

Take away the Son.....how are things created?

Take away the Holy Spirit....how does the Father communicate to the Son what his will is?

Take away the Father....how does the Son know what to do?  Joh_5:19  Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing,

The same can be said if one of them tried to do it on their own....they can't do it because they by themselves are not wholly God, the other 2 are needed

Consider how that can be understood without trying to apply the term "person" to it. We get so caught up in trying to apply the term person that we miss the above basics...and it's important, because when we understand the trinity we can understand how we are made in the image of God,  where we screw up and sin, and why we need salvation and guidance through our Lord Jesus.

Because they are all within and make up God, when we interact with any one we interact with God.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Mike 2

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/6/2017 at 10:57 AM, Mike 2 said:

 

Jesus BEFORE the CROSS, and Jesus after the Cross. 

 We read in the scriptures that Jesus Christ did not have the same authority before the Cross as he is having now and since the time after the Cross and the resurrection . 

After the Cross and the resurrection he said,  "ALL authority is given to me on Heaven and Earth", 

After the Cross and the resurrection , the Heavenly Father gave him the Throne and everything the Father had, and there is nothing that the Father had and he did not give it to him,  and he made him the Lord of Lords , the Judge over all. 

ALL the powers of the Heavenly Father are now vested in Jesus Christ. 

Now JESUS is equipped to do everything on his own, 

The Father gave the Government to him. 

"The Government is upon his shoulders". 

Every knee bow to him alone, 

When we say every knee, of course the Father is excluded. 

Before Jesus was doing th the will of the Father, now that Jesus is above all things sitted on the Throne, 

We can not say that the same thing as  before that "the Holy Spirit took him to the dessert to be tempted.....", 

But now the Holy Spirit is given to Jesus, to make known the will of Jesus to us. 

 Before JESUS was doing the will of the Father when he was here on Earth, 

Now that Jesus is in the Heavens, the Holy Spirit does the will of Jesus here on Earth. 

We read in the scriptures that Jesus said many things about him self, one of those things is what he said in John 5:19,

What he said in John 5:19 it was good while he was here in his ministry before the Cross. 

Before the Father glorified him in the Heavens. 

Do you believe that the Son of God who is the Lord of Lords, and he has all authority in Heaven and earth, because the Father gave to him ALL the authority, not before the Cross but after the Cross. Does the Son of God he still can not do anything by him self, 

Because his Heavenly Father has bestowed upon him All power , 

Which Powers he did not have before the Cross. 

Jesus said to the disciples after the resurrection , all power has been given to me, IN MY NAME You will do this and that , and that what Peter did at the Temple . 

And a strange thing happened, when the Shadow of Peter fell upon the sick , they were healed. 

And another strange thing happened later on, 

The people put the handkerchiefs Paul had used to wiped his swet and placed them on the sick and they were healed. 

What is it happening , how can you apply Jonh 5:19, in these examples. 

I have another big example, but I am careful not to say it as not to offend you. 

Hope that you take those things into consideration, because there are other things that I would like to discuss with you. 

God bless