Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 6:16 PM, Diaste said:

Really? So any view of the prophecies of scripture should just be accepted? You realize that either all the views would then be wrong or only one would be correct, don't you? Is that how we should approach prophecy, "As long as I believe it, it's true."? I'm sure that idea is Holy Spirit inspired and approved by God.

Frankly whether there is a pre or post rapture does not in anyway affect me or my faith . In fact since I have been looking at biblical sites , that is evangelical protestant ones ,I have learned  to appreciate more and  more, the Catholic churches , all of them, as they concentrate more on living like Christians , and   not  being obsessed so much  by our individual personal salvation, which is not the case with Catholics in,quite  the same way . . I see people wrangling endlessly, about end times ,,about détails of this and that , instead of living good lives .

Yes, I do not believe that simply by saying you are saved ,that you in fact are .  Jesus puts a premium on humility of the publican who does not consider himself 'saved ', as against the Pharisee who assumes he is, in Luke .

I looked at another bible sola scripture site and one of the questions they asked was "when were you saved "? For me this makes no sense .

I am going to add that on this other Sola Scripture site the Hatred ohat f the RCC is pathological ,where on catholic was attacked by everyone virtually in the most vitriolic manner . He was simply putting accross in a polite manner wt than hat he considered misconceptions of the Church ,but instead of answering the points ,they continued in the lies about Mary .

 Mary  is not a god in the RCC, and  i f there is a small percent who go to far ,better that than treat the mother of Jesus like some do .  The RCC is as big as the whole protestant community world wide ,and how many hérésies are contained  therein.    While I do not wish to go back to the RCC , neither am I impressed by Sola Sriptura people . After all I know what it is like to live in both types of community and the former is more Christian in manner .

Edited August 16, 2016 by Thallasa

[Flsnookman]

1 hour ago, PatrolMan said:

Remember what that old serpent told Eve? She was with God, disobeyed and died spiritually, many are going to go for the lie, it's hard to obey God and easier to do your own thing.

The lie is that we can undo what God has done, the lie is we are not saints and the righteousness of God in Christ, the lie is we are still our old sinful selves and not new creations in Christ. It is far easier to believe we are still sinners because thats how it "feels" or thats what we "think", it is very difficult to believe we are who God says we are when all we see points to the opposite. Remember faith is believing in what we can not see.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Thallasa said:

Frankly whether there is a pre or post rapture does not in anyway affect me or my faith . In fact since

I have been looking at biblical sites , that is evangelical protestant ones ,I have learned  to appreciate more and more, the Catholic churches , all of them as they concentrate more on living like Christians , and   not  being obsessedsom uch  by our individual personal salvation which is not the case with Ctholics in,quite  the same way . . I see people wrangling endlessly about end times ,about détails of this and that ,instead of living good lives .

Yes, I do not believe that simply by saying you are saved that you in fact are .  Jesus puts a premium on humility of the publican who does not consider himself 'saved ' as against the Pharisee who assumes he is in Luke .

I looked at another bible sola scripture site and one of the questions they asked was "when were you saved "? For me this makes no sense .

Interesting points.  I'm not too sure I'm living a 'good' life. I'm not a 'good' person even though I try to do and say the proper things. I think it's a noble cause to defend the Word. For anyone. The enemy is constantly walking about looking to make a mess, we really need to oppose him at every turn, imo.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, RobertS said:

Let's turn the question around for a moment: what if you don't see it? What if these things do not happen before the end of your life, or worse? What if they do not happen before the Rapture?

The Rapture is not a salvation issue, because where one stands on the Rapture is not an indicator of where one stands with the Lord. if you're thinking you can make that call, scripture tells us not to judge another's servant.

Frankly, there has not been one thing proven on this entire board that would even remotely indicate the pre-tribulation rapture is a "false doctrine". For every point against it, another can be made for it, an the same stands with pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib beliefs.

 

And if you still wish to debate the point, then there is one last thing for you to consider: Scripture tells us that in the Church, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile who are saved. Yet Daniel ch.9 tells us that Israel still has responsibilities to fulfill before the Lord during the Tribulation, and God has promises yet to fulfill to Israel. We also see in Daniel that the "last week" of the age of Law is fulfilled out of "Daniel's 70 weeks". With all of this being true, the Church cannot be here, as that would break God's word that was already spoken.

Either God was a liar (which He cannot be), or Jew and gentile in the church are removed before the age of Law resumes.

OK. Not really where I was going but no problem.

I think 5 years ago I would have given a different answer but since about a year ago there is just too much impetus. If indeed I die before I see any of this I will be resurrected at the Day of the Lord so I'm not concerned about that. But even if I do not see any of the things I know are coming, they are still coming. Can't be prevented, subverted or halted. As to your question, "What if they do not happen before the Rapture?" I would say it's just not possible for that to be the case. The Gospels, Epistles, and Rev are clear on the order of the three most important events: The Day of the Lord, the gathering of the elect and the rise of the beast. The clear order from all the relevant scripture is the beast rises first then sometime after the gathering occurs just before the Day of the Lord.

I have heard the 'not a salvation issue' argument too many time to count. One cannot know the timing of the rapture is not a 'salvation issue' for each person alive facing the coming times. One scenario is plausible: What if a person has heard a pretrib rapture is the truth, and they will not see the beast, A of D,  tribulation or the plagues. Now when they see all these things what happens to them? Maybe they think christians are liars and turn away from God.  I can't know that will happen but similar things have occurred to the young in the faith, or the weak in the faith. You cannot say it could not happen. Therefore we must be very careful to present the brutal, yet joyful, truth of the Word.

In reality there is a real problem with pretrib that shows it's nothing more than an elitist view and wholly internally inconsistent. Pretrib says that the whole 70th week is the wrath of God. Pre trib says believers are not appointed to wrath(this is correct). Since believers are not appointed to wrath, and the 70th week is the wrath of God, then all believers are taken before the 70th week begins. I agree the logic here is sound. (I'm ignoring the false premise for now) But there is a big problem with this. Pre trib also says there will be those on earth, after the rapture occurs, that turn to God by confessing Jesus is Lord. These are now believers, in the wrath of God, something pretrib says cannot happen. So now the argument goes, "Well, God can protect them from the His wrath." If that's the case why didn't every believer enter the 70th week? 

It's true that illogic and rationalization can make points for any position. Doesn't make those positions correct. The fact is only one scenario is true since all cannot be correct.

I have no idea what your last paragraph means. How do you get from Israel has a job to do, God has a job to do, the church is absent? 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Behold said:

no, you are wrong, Diaste

Jesus said, "if you do not believe i am the messiah you will die in your sins""...

So, its a bit more involved then repenting, as you have to BELIEVE SOMETHING according to Jesus and your New Testament.

The idea you are missing is; the sins were already present. What you are saying is, "Believe in me or die." That's a statement every tyrant in history has spoken. Jesus came to save us from the sin we live in. We all already had the sin in us. It's in our blood, passed down from Adam. I have witnessed to dozens of atheists that had previous contact with christians. Every one of them heard the message this way, "Worship me or die."  That is not the truth. The truth is, "Believe on me and be saved!" To wit:

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Love, salvation, belief. The truth is this, "...but he that believeth not is condemned already..." Not, 'Turn or burn.' There is no love in that statement.

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, PatrolMan said:

Remember the lie about dying that the serpent told Eve?

You are not seeing what I'm saying. Jesus came to save us from a condition we were born into. No one has to reject Jesus to die in their sins, we are all dying in our sins. There is none good, not one. The law has concluded all are under sin, etc. The sin condition is congenital. Jesus was relating that if we do not believe He is the Messiah, the sin condition will continue for there is no remedy for sin except the spilled blood of Jesus. We cannot present the saving work of Jesus as a threat, which is what so many do. I have seen it so many times. Trying to witness to those abused by a christian saying, "Turn or burn!" is heartbreaking. They feel threatened and defensive. They always ask, "What did I do wrong? I'm not a bad person." Jesus came to save because the law has condemned us all to death because of the sin in us. If Jesus is not sacrificed we are all destined to the lake of fire. Rejecting the Messiah only removes the chance at salvation, we were all condemned to the chopping block from the beginning and neither Jesus or God had anything to do with that. 

[Diaste]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:26 AM, RustyAngeL said:

Adding to and taking from have to do with the people that do just that. Adding their own twist to things and taking away the things they don't agree with or don't want to agree with.  I don't see where anyone has added to or taken from anything.  I believe you have gotten it a little twisted around.  And I don't think anyone has said anything about your mental state.  

If as believers have to go through the tribulation I believe God will give us the grace to get through whatever we need to.  

As for me I"m thinking more mid trib, but still hold out hope for pre trib.  Either way I will see Jesus in the end and be in Heaven.  I can't think of anything better then that.  To live in total fear of what you are afraid of takes to much energy from me.  Being alone, and a widow I cannot and will not live if fear.  To me fear is the opposite of faith, and I am told to walk by faith.

Well,when someone tells another, "...you are very wrong and confused." there's a question of mental state. Now I may be wrong and confused but I'm sure not going to see it that way. Why put someone on the defensive when in an open discussion? Seems counterproductive. Not that I'm going to get defensive. Resistance is like proof.

Any time there is an omission of fact there is a twist or spin and the conclusion is inadequate or false. That's what I'm saying. Facts have been omitted. Logic has been suspended. Conclusions are elitist and further agendas. Sad state of affairs. 

[Diaste]

On 8/14/2016 at 0:58 PM, RustyAngeL said:

So I take Diaste, you do not believe in the Trinity?  You don't believe God is, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? God did become man, died on the cross for us and rose again three days later.  Just so you know.

Of course the Trinity is reality. The Son(god) took the form of man. God(the Father) remained on the throne, The Holy Spirit oversaw everything. What I'm saying is Jesus, equal with God, left his exalted place and the Word became flesh. A perfect man died on the cross, not one of the Godhead. That would be impossible.

[Guest Robert]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

OK. Not really where I was going but no problem.

I think 5 years ago I would have given a different answer but since about a year ago there is just too much impetus. If indeed I die before I see any of this I will be resurrected at the Day of the Lord so I'm not concerned about that. But even if I do not see any of the things I know are coming, they are still coming. Can't be prevented, subverted or halted. As to your question, "What if they do not happen before the Rapture?" I would say it's just not possible for that to be the case. The Gospels, Epistles, and Rev are clear on the order of the three most important events: The Day of the Lord, the gathering of the elect and the rise of the beast. The clear order from all the relevant scripture is the beast rises first then sometime after the gathering occurs just before the Day of the Lord.

I have heard the 'not a salvation issue' argument too many time to count. One cannot know the timing of the rapture is not a 'salvation issue' for each person alive facing the coming times. One scenario is plausible: What if a person has heard a pretrib rapture is the truth, and they will not see the beast, A of D,  tribulation or the plagues. Now when they see all these things what happens to them? Maybe they think christians are liars and turn away from God.  I can't know that will happen but similar things have occurred to the young in the faith, or the weak in the faith. You cannot say it could not happen. Therefore we must be very careful to present the brutal, yet joyful, truth of the Word.

In reality there is a real problem with pretrib that shows it's nothing more than an elitist view and wholly internally inconsistent. Pretrib says that the whole 70th week is the wrath of God. Pre trib says believers are not appointed to wrath(this is correct). Since believers are not appointed to wrath, and the 70th week is the wrath of God, then all believers are taken before the 70th week begins. I agree the logic here is sound. (I'm ignoring the false premise for now) But there is a big problem with this. Pre trib also says there will be those on earth, after the rapture occurs, that turn to God by confessing Jesus is Lord. These are now believers, in the wrath of God, something pretrib says cannot happen. So now the argument goes, "Well, God can protect them from the His wrath." If that's the case why didn't every believer enter the 70th week? 

It's true that illogic and rationalization can make points for any position. Doesn't make those positions correct. The fact is only one scenario is true since all cannot be correct.

I have no idea what your last paragraph means. How do you get from Israel has a job to do, God has a job to do, the church is absent? 

"It's just not possible" is a cop-out and a dodge designed to avoid answering the question and you know it. So, let's address some of your claims:

First off: Revelation says that the entire Trib is God's wrath, in Rev 6. How can the Seal judgments be called the "wrath of the lamb", but the rest until the Bowl Judgments not be? If that is the case, and scripture tells us that "we are not appointed to wrath". Kind of hard to explain with the remaining scenarios.

Also, if the Rapture comes mid or post-trib, then all you're going to get is people who have wasted their whole lives "deciding" to repent at the last seconds before the Rapture. Not to mention a post-trib rapture is senseless, as Jesus is already on his way down.

Additionally, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that no one knows the time the Rapture will come, which presents a problem for pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib scenarios.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, NASB, emphasis mine)

If we knew the timing of the Rapture, it would not be a "mystery".

As for your claim of " These are now believers, in the wrath of God, something pretrib says cannot happen.", this is the return of the dispensation of Law, not grace. These are not the church, but Tribulation Believers. They learn a new song no one else can learn, so they cannot be of the Bride of Christ, and the promises made to the Church do not apply here, just as the promises made to Israel cannot be transferred to the Church.

Yet another point: "For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

Not "through", not "during", but "from the wrath to come.

There is also the issue of the Restrainer: It has to be the Holy Spirit, as it takes a person of superior power to restrain an individual such as Satan. Even Michael the Archangel would not argue with Satan when contending with the body of Moses, but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9 to be exact). And scripture is clear that A) He would never leave us nor forsake us, and B) the restrainer would be removed.

Finally, Daniel 9 makes clear that Israel still has duties to perform before the Lord, to finish what they were originally charged with:

" “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. " (Daniel 9:24, NASB)

It is clear here that the Lord once again deals with Israel as a distinct calling and purpose. Were the Church present, there could be no distinction between them, nor could Israel finish the divine duties given to her. Keep in mind the 144,000 are Jews sealed and chosen by God; how could they be Jews, yet be sealed if the Church were still here?

 

So, I'm sorry; but what you're trying to sell here isn't working.  While I have no issue with folks believing in pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib raptures, I do have a problem when someone claims that pre-trib is a "false teaching". Omegaman and I disagree for example on this and several issues, but I have never once called him a "false teacher" or "heretic" (others have, much to their shame). And yes, you can come up with every single hypothetical scenario of "this could cause a person to not believe"; well, that's like saying "hypochondriacs visit my doctor so I'm not going". It's a lame excuse, and it doesn't work.

 

And with that, my work is done here.  Reply if you feel you should, but I've made my points clear.

[Diaste]

On 8/14/2016 at 8:40 AM, PatrolMan said:

I can only say that this site is not where you or anyone else would read over two hundred pages of research including the writings of over twenty theologians on this subject. If you want to believe that you are saved for ever, then I respect your opinion. As a minister, which doesn't make me any better then any one else have discussed this subject with a lot of other clergy members. Many people have a saying when it comes to discussing scripture which is " don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" Please, I mean no disrespect in any way but we need to close our discussion and move on. This subject has nothing to do with salvation and it is a endless debate in which we both have expressed our belief and opinion.

Yes, your credentials are impeccable. That means you should have no problem refuting what you see as the opposition. With the backing of 20 whole theologians and 200 pieces of paper your position is rock solid and will withstand all scrutiny. But the opposite is true isn't it?  You rushed to judgement by saying, " you're very wrong." You insulted my mental acuity when you said I was "confused" and in the above quote you have accused me of ignoring the facts and being closed minded. You then follow that up with the disclaimer about disrespect. Knowing full well you have been disrespectful you absolve yourself by saying, "I don't mean to...." 

Your whole post is dismissive and you say I ignore the facts.  Honestly I'm not even sure what you're getting at. I was talking about the pretrib fallacy and you say this, " If you want to believe that you are saved for ever, then I respect your opinion." What are you talking about? It's a pretty clear and well established biblical concept that eternal life is one of the rewards for them that trust in God and believe on Jesus.