more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[hmbld]

17 minutes ago, Willa said:

I also agree with more of what you say than you think.  I am not Armenian in Theology.  But I am very close the the 4 point Calvinism that Ron Rhodes proposes.  I have dug out many of the verses many times in the past only to have you eliminate them from other threads.  And you are taking some of Rhodes' verses out of context.  That's OK.  I refused to read Pink's 8 inch thick boos as well.  But its fine print, my poor vision at the time, and my dyslexia made it overwhelming.    

Thank you for at least partially scanning Rhode's post, even if it was misconstrued.

Willa

Hey Willa!  I clicked the link, and read a good portion, but I also was unable to grasp what was being pointed out.  Its not necessarily the length, as I have read and followed other links supplied that were long also, and I thank you for the supplied overview.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

34 minutes ago, Willa said:

Forgive me for being irritated with you.  I realize that you are very busy and that 5 point calvinism is a passion of yours.  I am thankful that you are saved, born again, and that you take the time to answer most replies and questions.  I am also thankful that you have given your time to be a mod servant here.  So I do appreciate you, Omega, and have for many years, even though I don't always agree with you.  

Ah Gee, there I was writing a response to your other post just prior to this, and you have to go all super nice on me, lol.

Guess I will just not hit that reply button after all. I do not expect, or request, or require, that anyone agree with me. I am okay being disagreed with, I am used to it, and if I should ever be the only one who takes my position, I will have to think hard about why I am solo, but if I am convicted that I am correct, I doubt I would shut up, and I do not expect anyone else to either.

Our battles is not with each other, but with the forces of darkness. Keep up the good fight! Thanks for your reply!

[hmbld]

On May 24, 2016 at 10:21 AM, enoob57 said:

I can't see what your saying about me because I consider myself rather dumb! I have had, here, people who
articulate the same as you have and it frustrates me because I would not be typing it if I did not think
it to be of importance yet the sorrow it brings to me to be, as it is here un-effective, to the considerations!
Shiloh has stated my writing form is poor and that could be... due to the ignorance I have in punctuation and
wording~ it is convoluted to the reader   but although my disdain, early in life, for English class my greatest
abilities in IQ testing lies in reading comprehension... go figure   I noticed the other post you have posted
while I was writing that and see it might continue in this direction so will end here and begin there.
Love, Steven
 

Steven, I have applied my time tested enoob translator to this passage and it did not compute.  I would sincerely like to know who was using your I.D. on this post.  Moving past this, your usual posting is thought provoking and appreciated.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

54 minutes ago, Willa said:

I also agree with more of what you say than you think.  I am not Armenian in Theology.  But I am very close the the 4 point Calvinism that Ron Rhodes proposes.  I have dug out many of the verses many times in the past only to have you eliminate them from other threads.  And you are taking some of Rhodes' verses out of context.  That's OK.  I refused to read Pink's 8 inch thick boos as well.  But its fine print, my poor vision at the time, and my dyslexia made it overwhelming.    

Thank you for at least partially scanning Rhode's post, even if it was misconstrued.

Willa

Willa

I am starting to get that idea, that we do agree on a lot, but that was not always clear to me. One think confuses me though . . . 

you say: "I have dug out many of the verses many times in the past only to have you eliminate them from other threads."

I have done that? When did I do that? I almost never remove posts or edit them, the exception being when a thread goes nutso, and becomes feudal and ugly. Sometimes I or others, eliminate entire threads or sections of them, becuase they are just beyond salvation, without taking hours and hours to pull the weeds. Sometimes I even do that, but sometimes, there just is not time. Sometimes, I hide threads and try to recover them as I can make time. We lose a lot of good posts this way, this is one reason to keep on the subject and avoid getting personal, it ends up causing the loss of a lot of good stuff that people worked hard on researching and composing.

You also said:

"And you are taking some of Rhodes' verses out of context. "

That sounds to me, that Rhodes is no writing the Bible, I hope you mean to say, that I am taking verse that Rhodes cites, out of context. I try very hard not to do that, and honestly, if I have ever taken any verse out of context, it was unintended and not realized.

I have an open invitation, no, a request:

If I ever take a verse out of context (something that I have accused others of, frequently, by the way), please, draw my attention to that. I do not mind being taken to task if I deserve it, but if/when that happens, let't get in on the table and address it. I would rather me accused of that, and have a chance to either explain or defend what is there, than have it go unchallenged, and possibly lead others astray.

James 3:1 say:

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

I take that verse seriously. Unlike Chuck Missler, who acknowledges that verse and then tries to use the loop hole of not calling himself a teacher, lol. If you are teaching, you are a teacher. I acknowledge that I teach, and then I try to use words  and phrases like "I believe", "in my opinion" or "as I understand it".

I also request that people think about what I say. I do not mean, consider what I am meaning, I mean consider what I am actually saying, with out assuming I am mean anything other that what I said. My words are usually carefully chosen, but I so often hear people repeat to me, that things they think I meant, not what I actually said. For example, someone might conclude, that I counted words, because I said how many words there were. Of course, it gets worse than that, but I spend a lot of time replying to objections, because people equate their interpretation of my words to what I say. I would prefer that people do not interpret me, lol. When I am unclear, feel free to request clarification/expansion.

Thanks for the ear.

oh, and I did not partially scan Rhodes, I read it several times, I just can not follow it.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

Steven, I have applied my time tested enoob translator to this passage and it did not compute.  I would sincerely like to know who was using your I.D. on this post.  Moving past this, your usual posting is thought provoking and appreciated.  

I appreciate your kindness but it is a sincere view I hold of myself... if I can do it then I don't consider it much  

[Willa]

24 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Hey Willa!  I clicked the link, and read a good portion, but I also was unable to grasp what was being pointed out.  Its not necessarily the length, as I have read and followed other links supplied that were long also, and I thank you for the supplied overview.  

• Lexical-syntactical analysis: This step looks at the words used and the way the words are used. Different order of the sentence, the punctuation, the tense of the verse are all aspects that are looked at in the lexical syntactical method. Here, lexicons and grammar aids can help in extracting meaning from the text.
• Contextual analysis: A verse out of context can often be taken to mean something completely different from the intention. This method focuses on the importance of looking at the context of a verse in its chapter, book and even biblical context.

These are the methods of hermeneutics being used to examine the uses of the word world in Scripture.  From it they ascertained that it can only be used to mean all people in the mentioned verses and not just the elect.  I eliminated most of the commentary by experts because it was so lengthy.   Toward the end of the tome he makes the point that God's will, grace and the Holy Spirit can be resisted by giving many instances and quotes about people resisting God and not coming to Him or receiving Him for salvation.  Therefore not all are saved because of their own resistance to God 's Spirit.  

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.  :19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them   1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.   1:21  For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

All men everywhere are given some knowledge of God.  If they reject what they do know, God does not give them further light leading to salvation.  

Mat 13:10 AMP  Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?  :11  And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.  :12  For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Joh 3:19  This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

Always the blame for not being saved is placed on men refusing to believe and come to the light.  It is not placed on God's election.  

Act 7:51  WEB“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Mat 23:37  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under herwings, but you were not willing!

Joh 5:34  Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.  5:40  But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

2 Peter 3:9 says: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." How can this be if Christ died only and exclusively for the elect?

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."  

Acts 17:30: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."  

1 John 2:2 says: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

1Ti 4:10  For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

These are pretty much the arguments that were made.  I hope this helps you to understand that Jesus died for everyone and that we alone are to blame for resisting the call and grace of the Holy Spirit to come to salvation through Christ.

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 4:18 PM, angels4u said:

 

Amen for 100% !

Do Calvinist believe God can revoke the Salvation and therefore they might live in fear?

Oh dear......  That's so wrong

In the Netherlands I have known may Calvinists as there are many and I always found them more or less legalistic , they went by so many rules, I remember so many things some of my friends were not allowed to do on Sunday, like swimming or buying french fries or something tons of stuff...

I remember when my parents were visiting my grandparents I was not allowed to bring my knitting, that was wrong to do that on the Sunday.

I even had an uncle who thought it wrong to drive on Sunday

 

  The  Christian Taliban . 

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, hmbld said:

There is way too much I want to comment and ask about, so I will just pick one.  In this section, you stated Adam "chose" to rebel against God.  Second paragraph, you again said we chose to rebel.  In reference to God's sovereignty, you have said we can not choose to accept Jesus, as that is allowing us too much, but here you are saying people at least have free will to choose to sin.  Question, do you mean to say that any choosing to accept Jesus, is only the result of the Holy Spirit working in us, then so by choosing us?  Do I understand you correctly in that John 3:16, God really doesn't mean anybody can be a whosoever?  I am wanting to argue against that, based on Jesus said to repent, which sounds to me like we are responsible for making a choice to repent?

I lose my train of thought, I just reread your response, your saying God chooses, who He chooses, and none of it can be altered by our decisions, which makes it seem like a futile exercise.  Now, of course God can do what He chooses to do, but couldn't He also have decided to call to all people, and choose to let people have free will to answer yes or no?  

Got Questions:  There is a sense in which God draws all men. This is known as the “general call” and is distinguished from the “effectual call” of God’s elect. Passages such as Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20 attest to the fact that God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, “so that people are without excuse.” But men still do deny God, and those who acknowledge His existence still do not come to a saving knowledge of Him outside of His drawing them. Only those who have been drawn through special revelation—by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God—will come to Christ. 

 

Now I ask, if only people are saved due to this "effectual call" of God's elect, then why does God have a "general call", in which people are without excuse, yet they can't choose to be saved, they can only be saved if God chooses this "effectual call"?  

I agree God's ways are so far over our heads, we can not know, but when Jesus calls for us to repent, it seems to present an opportunity to respond, as if God is giving us free will, independent of His calling to us, to decide.  That is not taking any sovereignty away from God, it is only responding.  

 God has decided what kind of world He wishes to bring into being . We can look over time and find events unfolding in history ,much of it  God designed and some of it 'designed'  by human  activity which is so  often destructive . As humanity is mostly blind ,and lives in the moment, if  God did not provoke and guide our actions and thoughts we would just go round in circles , mainly in a downward spiral  .

I do not believe that God created us in the beginning with predestined roles as all of creation worked totally harmoniously ,and we all loved and created together without strife ,BUT

after the fall, God had to plan his long term strategy of rescue ,and for that He chose those best suited for each stage of the plan . This plan would also include a judgement of behaviour  in the face of stress and trials ,tests of  humility and loyalty to God aa willingness to learn, ,and above all to love both  the great I AM ,  and our neighbour . 

 

 I am not in anyway a Calvinist ,but it is evident that  people ,all people have a role from birth , some more public than others ,but to think this means some are saved already and others not, is to misunderstand our role playing in the larger picture as the plan unfolds . 

 

[Willa]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I am starting to get that idea, that we do agree on a lot, but that was not always clear to me. One think confuses me though . . . 

you say: "I have dug out many of the verses many times in the past only to have you eliminate them from other threads."

I have done that? When did I do that? I almost never remove posts or edit them, the exception being when a thread goes nutso, and becomes feudal and ugly. Sometimes I or others, eliminate entire threads or sections of them, becuase they are just beyond salvation, without taking hours and hours to pull the weeds. Sometimes I even do that, but sometimes, there just is not time. Sometimes, I hide threads and try to recover them as I can make time. We lose a lot of good posts this way, this is one reason to keep on the subject and avoid getting personal, it ends up causing the loss of a lot of good stuff that people worked hard on researching and composing.

You also said:

"And you are taking some of Rhodes' verses out of context. "

TThanks for the ear.

oh, and I did not partially scan Rhodes, I read it several times, I just can not follow it.

I repent in dust and ashes--well not quite because it irritates my COPD.  But I misread what I thought you quoted out of context.  It was not a quote at all.  My dyslexia makes me a very poor reader. I do ask you to forgive me for accusing you of that.  

The posts I made in the past you may have eliminated because you thought they had degenerated or because you thought they were off topic.  At any rate, I have spent a lot of time looking up and trying to quote the same Scriptures time after time.  This time many of them are in the reply to humbled but not all.  

As said, predestination is looking at it all from God's view.  But I do believe that men alone are responsible for resisting God's call.  We who are saved can look back and see how God shaped circumstances and softened our hearts to convict us of sin and to receive Him into our lives.  God's revelation of Himself to me in nature was very sovereign.  There was no preacher nor was there any help from my parents or from church or any person.  The same goes with His conviction of sin and my repentance.  But I did need help after that to understand the nature of Christ and the Trinity.

[Guest Thallasa]

22 minutes ago, Willa said:

I repent in dust and ashes--well not quite because it irritates my COPD.  But I misread what I thought you quoted out of context.  It was not a quote at all.  My dyslexia makes me a very poor reader. I do ask you to forgive me for accusing you of that.  

The posts I made in the past you may have eliminated because you thought they had degenerated or because you thought they were off topic.  At any rate, I have spent a lot of time looking up and trying to quote the same Scriptures time after time.  This time many of them are in the reply to humbled but not all.  

As said, predestination is looking at it all from God's view.  But I do believe that men alone are responsible for resisting God's call.  We who are saved can look back and see how God shaped circumstances and softened our hearts to convict us of sin and to receive Him into our lives.  God's revelation of Himself to me in nature was very sovereign.  There was no preacher nor was there any help from my parents or from church or any person.  The same goes with His conviction of sin and my repentance.  But I did need help after that to understand the nature of Christ and the Trinity.

 Your posts are always kind and enlightening ,and yes, what you say about having no preacher just light from above ,it is genuine I believe - not all are born 'empty' ,far from it .