more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

What I struggle with is the preponderance of Scripture that indicates choice that man has responsibility toward~ that the
Calvinist says isn't there   Really ... literally from beginning to end choice is an initial focus from God Speaking to
man and right beside all of this they have the thought that God does it all and man is but a puppet in and of himself....

I do not see it that way. I would say that the preponderance of scripture leads one to think that man does not have choice in his salvation, but it is not about counting the number of verses, it is looking at the strength of verses, and understanding them all in a way, that they do not present contradictions.

It appears to me, that Arminians have to ignore all the verses that speak to election and to the sequence of events in salvation, and all of the verse that speak specifically to predestination and things decided before the foundation of the world - repeatedly.

Sure, man is informed that there is a choice, but it goes back to the cow in my graphic illustration. That cow could choose to eat that steak, but it will not, it is not in it's nature. The cow does not get to choose it's nature, it is stuck with that.

Similarly, un-regenerated mankind (not born again by the grace of God) is stuck in the same position. It is not in his nature to choose the things of God, and he is incapable of understanding them in any real sense, the gospel is foolishness to him.

Man is a puppet. His strings are either pulled by the sin that he is a slave to, or by God, who he is also a slave to. Mind you, we are not talking about every possible choice here, just the choice of salvation. God could have left man in his condition, where he was a slave to sin, but He chose not to. It is because of God's intervention, that some are saved, apart from that, all would be lost. I prefer to be saved by his grace, that to be lost in my sin, and I am grateful that God imposed His will on me.

[enoob57]

26 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Anyway, John Calvin's character flaws are not part of the doctrines of Calvinism. We should probably note, with regard to him and the church of his age, that most people had no access to Bibles yet, and were subject to the teaching of their leaders. This is similar to Judaism in the time of Christ, where the leadership had taken their religion where it should not have gone. These Christian tragedies, were partly because people knew of the laws of the Old Testament, concerning what capital crimes were, and had not yet, come to embrace fully, the reforms and grace implied in the New Covenant. 

Yet in this heart was later a fruit from His understanding of Scripture!
It is a red flag according to The Word of God

Mt 7:15-20

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
KJV

The Calvinist seem to ignore the council of God in this... it should be a matter of prayer for us all- for them!
Clearly the life of Calvin does not match up with the life of Christ and is against all urging directly from that
of Paul

1 Co 11:1

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
KJV

Love, Steven

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
KJV

The Calvinist seem to ignore the council of God in this... it should be a matter of prayer for us all- for them!
Clearly the life of Calvin does not match up with the life of Christ and is against all urging directly from that
of Paul

I do not think that you are properly applying that. If a man's life does not reflect the faith in his life, that does not mean his theology is wrong, certainly notion everything he says. If a Christian commits an act of adultery, his fruit is bad. If he said that Jesus is the Son of God, should re reject that teaching because his fruit is flawed?

I  imagine there are scores of pastors, maybe hundreds or thousands, who have produced some bad fruit. That is not the measure of truth, that is just hypocrisy. Are you totally free of that? I am not.

The measure of a teaching, is comparing it with scripture. Personally, I find some of your theology to be suspect, at least in peripheral matters, as I know you do mine as well. John Calvin, if he is in error, was in error on peripherals, even if they are important ones.

In any case, I again stress, that this topic is about theology, not personality. Let's measure that and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

On the plus side, I agree that it should be a matter of prayer for us all, and I would not reject the idea of you praying for me.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I do not see it that way. I would say that the preponderance of scripture leads one to think that man does not have choice in his salvation, but it is not about counting the number of verses, it is looking at the strength of verses, and understanding them all in a way, that they do not present contradics.
Then you have left the reasoning of God in Scripture (the whole of it) to that of your own prejudice of reason within yourself...
The very begin of sin in calvanistic formation is deemed God responsible in His Sovereignty... Yet in the doctrines of satanology:
Lucifer according to God's Word is eternal barer of responsibility for the construct of lie ... here is where the rub is... they (Calvinist)
see sin as a creative aspect of God because it is here -YET- God's Word witnesses

Eph 4:27
27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV

Is it that the devil is not here? -no- it is the fact that what the devil has brought into appearance as substance is no creation of God but
rebellion as of theft in what was created and made to appear as something else~ when in fact it was deception without creative substance...
This is the core issue and error of Calvinism in their own effort to make God Sovereign in their own reasoning... 

It appears to me, that Arminians have to ignore all the verses that speak to election and to the sequence of events in salvation, and all of the verse that speak specifically to predestination and things decided before the foundation of the world - repeatedly.
I am not systematized to that of Arminius either... Election simply is a Sovereign God Who in His Place Alone is dealing with a creature He
has created 'lucifer' who by Scripture has the ability to do this
 

Mt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

This is very informative of the battle that persist in the s-Spiritual realm  and bears great weight to our consideration of election...
We being dead s- Spiritually (1^st born) have two components of God design to draw us to Him: one the creation itself (Rom 1:18-22) and
two The Scripture a full exposition of God to man on the who, what, where, why, when (not so much how) of all of life .... total depravity
is that when God >left us< in- (Holy Spirit Presence)- in the garden we were faced with seeking God through patriarchal dispensation and
creation's witness that God 'IS'... but we gave satan control of creation thru rule! Hence finding God in creations and The Scripture is thus
 

1 Co 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

hence we with conscious~ testified of by God in state of man after fall (Gen 3:22) we are in an impossible place ... for we have to choose outside of self,
the world we are in, and the system that induces the not to do so! Yet this is impossible for I cannot not be but that I am (sinner) = a self centered
being with begin thru procreation that desires rebellion against God thru the pleasures of a twisted out of order system... however there lies before
me a creation that demands explanation and a Book that fits with rationality of that sight in need of such explanation! Even though in sin I turn to
God it is not the God of new birth but one of old nature desiring thru belief to save self from torment ... a True Selfless Being 'IS' Personified in The
Holy Spirit unto The Son into The Being of The Father Whom Self cannot be denied for He simply 'IS'... when I sought God from the witness of creation
and Word- (which according to Scripture is of the same essence)- God brought me to a place of inability total as being dead in all that I was and all
that was around me with no hope in it and calling out in that place of nothingness God came to me in The Person of Jesus Christ and the miracle
of regeneration  occurred and I was made new with The Holy Spirit presence that would never leave me nor forsake me into eternity....

 

Sure, man is informed that there is a choice, but it goes back to the cow in my graphic illustration. That cow could choose to eat that steak, but it will not, it is not in it's nature. The cow does not get to choose it's nature, it is stuck with that.
Then why ask the cow to do so?

Similarly, un-regenerated mankind (not born again by the grace of God) is stuck in the same position. It is not in his nature to choose the things of God, and he is incapable of understanding them in any real sense, the gospel is foolishness to him.
explained above - it is where the 'foolishness lies' that Calvinist wrap the package wrong... a selfish self centered man cannot reason the death to self
~for how can that which is become that which is not yet still be, yet not (Rom 7) >herein the mystery of salvation< that God wrought in the seeking sinner...
However it does not say that he cannot see the wrongness in what he is elsewise the call to repentance is foolishness
 

Lk 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
KJV
yet this is the very reason Jesus came into the world as to purpose - revealing the absolute nature of God Himself in Selfless Being so beautifully betrayed
in The Son of Righteousness!!

Man is a puppet. His strings are either pulled by the sin that he is a slave to, or by God, who he is also a slave to. Mind you, we are not talking about every possible choice here, just the choice of salvation. God could have left man in his condition, where he was a slave to sin, but He chose not to. It is because of God's intervention, that some are saved, apart from that, all would be lost. I prefer to be saved by his grace, that to be lost in my sin, and I am grateful that God imposed His will on me.

Here is your error in this statement- it is one of focus and is common to all and only the understanding of what I have written above flows into the acceptance
of not so a puppet.... your view is not as it should be because it is centered upon 1st creation which in Christ has been made null and void when His Word has
accomplished It's purpose here! It is in the eternal past that we were before sin in Him and in the eternal future after sin is put away in Him... the elect of Him
through foreknowledge undefined...

enoobs replies in red and Scripture in blue... Love, Steven

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I do not see it that way. I would say that the preponderance of scripture leads one to think that man does not have choice in his salvation, but it is not about counting the number of verses, it is looking at the strength of verses, and understanding them all in a way, that they do not present contradics.
Then you have left the reasoning of God in Scripture (the whole of it) to that of your own prejudice of reason within yourself...
The very begin of sin in calvanistic formation is deemed God responsible in His Sovereignty... Yet in the doctrines of satanology:
Lucifer according to God's Word is eternal barer of responsibility for the construct of lie ... here is where the rub is... they (Calvinist)
see sin as a creative aspect of God because it is here -YET- God's Word witnesses

Eph 4:27
27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV

Is it that the devil is not here? -no- it is the fact that what the devil has brought into appearance as substance is no creation of God but
rebellion as of theft in what was created and made to appear as something else~ when in fact it was deception without creative substance...
This is the core issue and error of Calvinism in their own effort to make God Sovereign in their own reasoning... 

It appears to me, that Arminians have to ignore all the verses that speak to election and to the sequence of events in salvation, and all of the verse that speak specifically to predestination and things decided before the foundation of the world - repeatedly.
I am not systematized to that of Arminius either... Election simply is a Sovereign God Who in His Place Alone is dealing with a creature He
has created 'lucifer' who by Scripture has the ability to do this
 

Mt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

This is very informative of the battle that persist in the s-Spiritual realm  and bears great weight to our consideration of election...
We being dead s- Spiritually (1^st born) have two components of God design to draw us to Him: one the creation itself (Rom 1:18-22) and
two The Scripture a full exposition of God to man on the who, what, where, why, when (not so much how) of all of life .... total depravity
is that when God >left us< in- (Holy Spirit Presence)- in the garden we were faced with seeking God through patriarchal dispensation and
creation's witness that God 'IS'... but we gave satan control of creation thru rule! Hence finding God in creations and The Scripture is thus
 

1 Co 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

hence we with conscious~ testified of by God in state of man after fall (Gen 3:22) we are in an impossible place ... for we have to choose outside of self,
the world we are in, and the system that induces the not to do so! Yet this is impossible for I cannot no be but that I am (sinner) = a self centered
being with begin thru procreation that desires rebellion against God thru the pleasures of a twisted out of order system... however there lies before
me a creation that demands explanation and a Book that fits with rationality of that sight in need of such explanation! Even though in sin I turn to
God it is not the God of new birth but one of old nature desiring thru belief to save self from torment ... a True Selfless Being 'IS' Personified in The
Holy Spirit unto The Son into The Being of The Father Whom Self cannot be denied for He simply 'IS'... when I sought God from the witness of creation
and Word- (which according to Scripture is of the same essence)- God brought me to a place of inability total as being dead in all that I was and all
that was around me with no hope in it and calling out in that place of nothingness God came to me in The Person of Jesus Christ and the miracle
of regeneration  occurred and I was made new with The Holy Spirit presence that would never leave me nor forsake me into eternity....

 

Sure, man is informed that there is a choice, but it goes back to the cow in my graphic illustration. That cow could choose to eat that steak, but it will not, it is not in it's nature. The cow does not get to choose it's nature, it is stuck with that.
Then why ask the cow to do so?

Similarly, un-regenerated mankind (not born again by the grace of God) is stuck in the same position. It is not in his nature to choose the things of God, and he is incapable of understanding them in any real sense, the gospel is foolishness to him.
explained above - it is where the 'foolishness lies' that Calvinist wrap the package wrong... a selfish self centered man cannot reason the death to self
~for haw can that which is become that which is not yet still be, yet not (Rom 7) >herein the mystery of salvation< that God wrought in the seeking sinner...
However it does not say that he cannot see the wrongness in what he is elsewise the call to repentance is foolishness
 

Lk 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
KJV
yet this is the very reason Jesus came into the world as to purpose - revealing the absolute nature of God Himself in Selfless Being so beautifully betrayed
in The Son of Righteousness!!

Man is a puppet. His strings are either pulled by the sin that he is a slave to, or by God, who he is also a slave to. Mind you, we are not talking about every possible choice here, just the choice of salvation. God could have left man in his condition, where he was a slave to sin, but He chose not to. It is because of God's intervention, that some are saved, apart from that, all would be lost. I prefer to be saved by his grace, that to be lost in my sin, and I am grateful that God imposed His will on me.

Here is your error in this statement- it is one of focus and is common to all and only the understanding of what I have written above flows into the acceptance
of not so a puppet.... your view is not as it should be because it is centered upon 1st creation which in Christ has been made null and void when His Word has
accomplished It's purpose here! It is in the eternal past that we were before sin in Him and in the eternal future after sin is put away in Him... the elect of Him
through foreknowledge undefined...

enoobs replies in red and Scripture in blue... Love, Steven

I think you are losing it Steven! I can barely understand what you are saying, no, forget the barely!

[enoob57]

I need help here from family is this not understood by anyone?

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I need help here from family is this not understood by anyone?

Steven, I do not mean to be offensive here, but I do not know how to ask this other than directly, so here goes:

Is English by chance, a second language to you?

[enoob57]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Steven, I do not mean to be offensive here, but I do not know how to ask this other than directly, so here goes:

Is English by chance, a second language to you?

No only English..
let's start by each paragraph and I can see what your speaking of?

[Omegaman 3.0]

42 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Then you have left the reasoning of God in Scripture (the whole of it) to that of your own prejudice of reason within yourself...
The very begin of sin in calvanistic formation is deemed God responsible in His Sovereignty... Yet in the doctrines of satanology:
Lucifer according to God's Word is eternal barer of responsibility for the construct of lie ... here is where the rub is... they (Calvinist)
see sin as a creative aspect of God because it is here -YET- God's Word witnesses

Okay, as I have told others at times, it is helpful if they rephrase things as though they are speaking to a ten year old, give that a shot and I might get it!

http://omegazine.com/enoob1.mp3

 

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

It appears to me, that Arminians have to ignore all the verses that speak to election and to the sequence of events in salvation, and all of the verse that speak specifically to predestination and things decided before the foundation of the world - repeatedly.

Setting aside the label of *Arminian*, it should be clearly stated that Calvinists misapply election and predestination to salvation, when the Bible makes it clear that those terms apply to sanctification and perfection -- "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son".  Since Christ is perfect and in a glorious body, Christians will be perfected and also in glorious bodies. That is guaranteed by election and predestination.

Those who would believe were chosen before the foundation of the world (through Divine foreknowledge) to be perfected in Christ. "ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD".  Could all have been chosen in this manner had all believed?   Absolutely.  Therefore predestination for salvation or damnation is false doctrine.