2Thessalonians2:6-7 explained

[post]

6 hours ago, OakWood said:

Because that is what the Bible implies.

oh that explains it fully lol. 

so clear now, thanks.  

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Sure that is a common view.   But it is wrong.   The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He" in the new testament.     The Holy Spirit must be in the world for persons to be saved, receive Jesus, during the great tribulation.

The fundamental problem I see in understanding verse 7, is that translations other than the KJV use the term restrains - which people when reading that verse - assume there is a "restrainer".    And that notion gets embedded in their head.

So people look for a fit as who is the "restrainer".   The two most popular responses is Michael, and the Holy Spirit.

But it is actually Jesus who is allowing (letteth) the mystery of iniquity to take place, as people were leaving Christianity.  All the way until the church, the body of Christ, is taken out of the world.  

 

Grammatically speaking, my interpretation of verse 6 and 7 is same as that of the greek gender wise.

In verse 6 - neuter

In verse 7 - masculine

The problem is not with the translations. Post has made a good case to show that letteth meant restrain or equivalent in those days. As for the Holy Spirit, you will need to refer to the Greek text to appreciate the difference in gender. Also, the Greek text does not say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth. He just gets “out of the way.” See YLT or ESV. He will still operate on earth but he will no longer stand in the way of the coming of the lawless one.      

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Somehow, there seems to be some miscommunication between us.    Verse 6 "that which withholds" is a concept that the church will be raptured before the man of sin is revealed.    So it is not masculine gender in Verse 6.

You took my statement that Jesus controls everything at the end of my post out of context.    I was referring to that the man of sin cannot appear on the scene anytime he wants in history - that he needs to be restrained.     He can only  appear in a certain time of history - called "in his time" - when all of the other end times prophecy have been fulfilled or in the process of being fulfilled.    All of those prophecies are dependent on Jesus's control of all the world events.

I did not take your statement out of context. Besides, your statement is actually correct. Only God can restrain the devil. A concept cannot.

[douggg]

1 minute ago, ghtan said:

The problem is not with the translations. Post has made a good case to show that letteth meant restrain or equivalent in those days. As for the Holy Spirit, you will need to refer to the Greek text to appreciate the difference in gender. Also, the Greek text does not say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth. He just gets “out of the way.” See YLT or ESV. He will still operate on earth but he will no longer stand in the way of the coming of the lawless one.      

The greek word in verse 7 means restrains.   But in the nuance of the sentence, in translation letteth is more correct.   

If the created notion of a "restrainer" is successfully restraining the man of sin from going into the temple and claiming to be God - then the same restrainer was unable to keep the mystery of iniquity from taking place, because it was at work in Paul's day.        

The Holy Spirit is a "he".     The greek word for "spirit" may be neuter, I don't know.    But the reality is that the Holy Spirit is a person.    

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[douggg]

36 minutes ago, ghtan said:

The problem is not with the translations. Post has made a good case to show that letteth meant restrain or equivalent in those days. As for the Holy Spirit, you will need to refer to the Greek text to appreciate the difference in gender. Also, the Greek text does not say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth. He just gets “out of the way.” See YLT or ESV. He will still operate on earth but he will no longer stand in the way of the coming of the lawless one.      

I am saying it probably didn't mean restrain to them in that day within the context of the verse.    It means restrain as a stand alone word.

I would like to know how he "gets out of the way".    Is he standing at the doorway of the temple - that the person sees him and is afraid to go in?    I don't read of anyone getting out of the way, in preventing the man of sin from entering the temple in any of the other bible prophecy, like in Daniel 8:10-13 of the same forthcoming episode:

10  And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?          

Edited May 31, 2016 by douggg

[enoob57]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 5:13 PM, bopeep1909 said:

Who do you think is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 (SBLGNT)
[6] καὶ νῦν τὸ   κατέχον   οἴδατε, εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ‡ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ·

Verb

Present

Active

Participle

No Person

No Number

 

Quote

Vincent's Word Studies

2 Thessalonians 2:6

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

What withholdeth (τὸ κατέχον)

Better restraineth. The verb means to hold fast, as Luke 8:15 : to hold back, as Luke 4:42. See on Romans 1:18. He refers to some power which hinders the revelation of the man of sin or Antichrist.

In his time (ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ καιρῷ)

Better, in his own season, Not before his appointed season.

 

This power is not defined except only in opposition to the man of sin... the power over time and event without person or number
suggests only that...   Love, Steven 

[ghtan]

17 hours ago, douggg said:

I am saying it probably didn't mean restrain to them in that day within the context of the verse.    It means restrain as a stand alone word.

"Probably" isn't good enough. Since your understanding of letteth is at odds with virtually every other translation, the onus is on you to prove that the word means what you say it means. Btw, the NKJV translates the word in verse 7 as 'he who now restrains'. The NKJV set out to update the KJV. I believe the NKJV translators would have checked what letteth meant in the 17th century. 

17 hours ago, douggg said:

I would like to know how he "gets out of the way".    Is he standing at the doorway of the temple - that the person sees him and is afraid to go in?    I don't read of anyone getting out of the way, in preventing the man of sin from entering the temple in any of the other bible prophecy, like in Daniel 8:10-13 of the same forthcoming episode:

The Holy Spirit gets out of the way simply by no longer restraining evil thus allowing the lawless one to do as he pleases. I like the way the NLT puts it as "steps out of the way." Why do you tie in the coming of the lawless one with the point of his entry into the 'temple'? Surely he can come onto the world stage first and then enter the temple later.   

[douggg]

9 hours ago, ghtan said:

"Probably" isn't good enough. Since your understanding of letteth is at odds with virtually every other translation, the onus is on you to prove that the word means what you say it means. Btw, the NKJV translates the word in verse 7 as 'he who now restrains'. The NKJV set out to update the KJV. I believe the NKJV translators would have checked what letteth meant in the 17th century. 

 

The onus is not on me to state that the stand alone meaning of the greek word is restrains.   With the context of the verse, the nuance is that "restrains" indicates failure to have kept the mystery of iniquity to be at work.   Which there was no failure, because Jesus allowed, not restrains, letteth it to happen because he is given all power in heaven and in the earth..

Quote

The Holy Spirit gets out of the way simply by no longer restraining evil thus allowing the lawless one to do as he pleases. I like the way the NLT puts it as "steps out of the way." Why do you tie in the coming of the lawless one with the point of his entry into the 'temple'? Surely he can come onto the world stage first and then enter the temple later

The "revealing" of the man of sin - is not him coming on the world stage.     It is the act of him going into the temple, sit, claiming to be God, 2thessalonians2:4.     How is the Holy Spirit keeping that specific act from taking place?

First of all there is no temple.    And for nearly 2000 years, there was no nation of Israel in the land.    And on the temple mount, the muslims currently control.      So how is anyone being restrained from going into the temple and committing the act ?        There is no-one being restrained.     No-one is standing at the doorway trying to go inside.     It has to be in "his time". 

However, the mystery of iniquity is working right now.   Jesus is letting it happen, and it will continue to happen until the church the body of Christ is taken out the way, the rapture.

 

 

 

 

[ghtan]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

The onus is not on me to state that the stand alone meaning of the greek word is restrains.   With the context of the verse, the nuance is that "restrains" indicates failure to have kept the mystery of iniquity to be at work.   Which there was no failure, because Jesus allowed, not restrains, letteth it to happen because he is given all power in heaven and in the earth..

The "revealing" of the man of sin - is not him coming on the world stage.     It is the act of him going into the temple, sit, claiming to be God, 2thessalonians2:4.     How is the Holy Spirit keeping that specific act from taking place?

First of all there is no temple.    And for nearly 2000 years, there was no nation of Israel in the land.    And on the temple mount, the muslims currently control.      So how is anyone being restrained from going into the temple and committing the act ?        There is no-one being restrained.     No-one is standing at the doorway trying to go inside.     It has to be in "his time". 

However, the mystery of iniquity is working right now.   Jesus is letting it happen, and it will continue to happen until the church the body of Christ is taken out the way, the rapture.

Well, you can stick to your view. But at the end of the day who should readers believe? You who has not provided a shred of evidence to back your understanding of the meaning of letteth, or all those translators, including those of the NKJV, who evidently understand it as restrain or equivalent? The choice is a no-brainer. I don't have anything else to add.

[LeavesSeeds]

It gets even stranger when (if) you find out the truth. 

Keep seeking.