Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah & Son of God?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Esther4:14 said:

I don't find this to be a sufficient explanation for why Jewish people do not feel inclined to accept Christ today.  I think it only becomes an excuse.  For example, African Americans suffered hundreds of years being cruelly enslaved and mistreated by people who attended church on Sunday, and this has not affected their willingness to accept Christ as their Savior.  In fact, it was a while back that I read that Africa has a record for having the largest number of conversions taking place in a single gathering.  It was from an evangelistic missions event in Africa.  Outside of this, African American churches have always been a thriving part of the Christian community through many trials, toils, and snares.  

So, there is something altogether different about the resistance that is present within Judaism that has nothing to do with what you suggested as Hitler misrepresentation of Christianity.  Even in citing their presence in European countries.  Outside of different cultural separations, they have always enjoyed a strong economic presence that was not hindered from taking various positions within the country they were residing.  I also disagree that the explanation given to defend their position of innocence in regard to some of the charges that have been given to them throughout European history does not really hold much weight.  For example, saying that the law says that you are not supposed to do something does not mean that person is not capable of disobeying that law and committing offences in question, which were not without evidence in the time they were given.  That would be like saying the law says that it is illegal to steal in America, so of course it would just be a rumor that anyone in America were guilty of stealing.  The law says not to steal; therefore, we clearly don't believe in the crime we are accused of.  That is a ridiculous defense.  There is no way to prove one way or the other now; however, that does not make the defense more logical.  

So, I don't believe the Jewish people have been as innocent as they would like to have everyone believe, and the only difference between their complaint and the complaint of the African American community is that the Jewish people can't beat everyone over the head with the club that says, "God's chosen people," on it and try to finally get the nations to submit to their self proclaimed superiority and presumption that they should have this or that or this or that and then...they might consider accepting Christ.  

However, maybe everything that has happened is God's will, and maybe it would be better to consider this the same way David did when the man was taunting him when he was suffering for committing adultery.  

"As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! ⁸ The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”  Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”  But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”

If the Jewish people could begin to see that they would get farther with repentance than with making demands, maybe the veil would finally be lifted for them.  

Until then, I have read counter missionary literature.  I am fairly certain that the reasons why the Jewish people don't convert to Christianity have more to do with doctrinal complaints than with a connection between Hitler and Christianity.  For example, the doctrine of the trinity and Christianity false teaching about Satan are too major doctrinal roadblocks to the Jewish people accepting salvation.  

How many here know that Satan does not exist in Judaism the way it does in Christianity.  Taken from Ask the Rabbi

"Everything comes from G-d, He created everything, good and evil. That being the case, Satan is not a rival of G-d, he is a messenger of G-d and unable to do anything outside of G-d’s will... To reiterate, in the Jewish bible, everything was created by G-d, both good and evil and everything is under G-d’s control. Only one force, not two, whereas, in Christianity Satan is not under the control of G-d but is rather, a competing force against G-d. Christian theology makes Satan so powerful that he is given the title, “the god of this world.” This sets up a situation in Christian theology whereby Jesus must come and accomplish something to help us get out of the difficult situation – to overcome Satan, since he is at war not only with G-d, but with us. However, Judaism teaches that what is to be overcome is not Satan, but the “satan” in our path, the obstacle which has been put there for our growth," http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-2566/the-jewish-view-of-satan/?p=2566

Now, I have always been of the opinion that people throw out the whole attack from the enemy thing way too much, to the point where we almost take or expect no responsibility over injustices taking place.  So, I do find that I might have adopted a view that is something more of a middle ground between seeing the enemy as an obstacle and recognizing that Satan represents the ultimate rebellion against the authority of the creator of everything.  That He did not create evil.  Evil was created by rebellion towards him.  

However, I can see how this doctrinal position creates a very large gap between what I am familiar with encountering in a Sunday church gathering.  

Therefore, the problem is much more doctrinal in my opinion, than anything else.  It is even naive to think otherwise considering what the Jewish people possess, which we know as the Old Testament and larger portion of the perfect inspired word of God.  

In my opinion, it would be more effective to face this head on and discuss ways to address the doctrinal differences preventing the salvation of the Jewish people rather than pretending they are not there and suggesting that there is another cause.  

A real, sincere engagement in topics like this would be the best way to bring in people and grow in the body of Christ.  I personally think it would benefit everyone if we talked about things like this together rather than talking about being Jew or Gentile.  

Who knows, maybe the church could grow to an even more accurate understanding of the adversary we face, and possibly even gain a greater defense from an understanding of the truth.  But, this will never happen when you have one side crying that they deserve more than they have been given, while the other side caters to this through a lack of discernment.  

 

I just watched the new "roots" series. Thoughts concerning black slaves also struck me concerning the Jew's. Blacks just seen the hypocrisy of the slave holders, or their wicked mind in making blacks fall outside of humanity. Therefore all of them, slave holder as well as slave knew what the truth of  the new testament scripture concerning these things.

Also, I have watched doctor Brown a messianic Jew, debate Rabbi's. they acknowledge the holocaust etc. has been a punishment from God, just like all their punishments before Christianity.

Also we know historically Jew's had always been a part of the Church. Both as heretics and as non heretics.

No doubt the establishing of the sect of the Pharisees by Rome, played a large part as well. After the destruction of the temple, rome gave the sect of the Pharisees for rulers to the Jew's

Messianic Judaism is a movement which is recent to history. Prior to the mid 70's they called themselves Hebrew Christians.

Also most Jew's remained in the church, at least back in the 90's. and Messianic congregations were mainly made up of Gentiles, and I believe still are. So, these kinds of arguments do not make much sense of history. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Ogner said:

Christian countries in the Allies of World War II, "United States, Soviet Union, United Kingdom,France, Poland, Canada, Australia, Yugoslavia, Greece, Netherlands,  Belgium, New Zealand, South Africa, Norway, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Brazil, Mexico, Colombia. "

Are you trying to say that actually most U.S. citizens were silent and did nothing?

You do know that the Soviet Union lost around 27 million people during the war, including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilian deaths. The largest portion of military dead were 5.7 million ethnic Russians, followed by 1.3 million ethnic Ukrainians. A quarter of the people in the Soviet Union were wounded or killed.

Are you trying to say that Jews are uncouth and fail to appreciate this?

 

The countries fighting Hitler were not fighting to save the Jews.  They were fighting to stop Hitler's attempt to dominate the world.  The eventual liberation of the Jews had nothing to do with anyone being a Christian.  It was simply a result of the Germans losing the war.    The war would have been fought with or without the Holocaust taking place.

And yes most citizens in the US even the Christian people were basically silent during the Holocaust, some even asserting that the Jews deserved what they were getting.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The countries fighting Hitler were not fighting to save the Jews.  They were fighting to stop Hitler's attempt to dominate the world.  The eventual liberation of the Jews had nothing to do with anyone being a Christian.  It was simply a result of the Germans losing the war.    The war would have been fought with or without the Holocaust taking place.

And yes most citizens in the US even the Christian people were basically silent during the Holocaust, some even asserting that the Jews deserved what they were getting.

I do not think many in the us even knew what was really going on there until way late. There were a lot silent during slavery as well, and many said they deserved it. Think about it. So many Jew's themselves did not leave in time because they themselves did not really believe what was happening.

But this was only done by certain countries to Jew's, not the US.

Many Irish Catholics were treated terribly as well at one time in the US., and of course those which did so, thought  they deserved it.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

2 minutes ago, Joline said:

I do not think many in the us even knew what was really going on there until way late. There were a lot silent during slavery as well, and many said they deserved it.

 

In the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, there is a huge mural of every front page, of every major newspaper in the United States that covers every year that the camps were in operation.  And those pages tell specifically of the camps and what was going on there.  There was plenty of general awareness except in areas perhaps that did not have access to the papers or much news.  But no claim to ignorance can be claimed.  It was known by many, many people in this country.  There was enough knowledge that it cannot be claimed that no one knew until the last.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

In the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, there is a huge mural of every front page, of every major newspaper in the United States that covers every year that the camps were in operation.  And those pages tell specifically of the camps and what was going on there.  There was plenty of general awareness except in areas perhaps that did not have access to the papers or much news.  But no claim to ignorance can be claimed.  It was known by many, many people in this country.  There was enough knowledge that it cannot be claimed that no one knew until the last.

Shiloh, think about it......So many Jew's themselves LIVING IT, did not realize the reality of what was happening.....................UNTIL it was too late, and could not escape and died..........But we in other countries knew?

That makes no sense.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Ogner said:

Suppose, you preach the Gospel to a jew.
And he tells you, "I do not accept Jesus because Hitler was a Christian."
Can you imagine that?

 

When you speak to Jewish people about Jesus, that's not what they say.  they will simply tell you that they are Jewish and Jews don't believe in Jesus. 

But to remind you, I didn't say it was merely because of Hitler.  It has to do with over 1700 years of persecution led by the "church."   You seem to not really read everything I said to you.  

Often laws were passed in many Christian countries that forbade the Jewish people from purchasing land from Christians, and forbade any friendly contact between Christians and Jews.  Jewish people were not allowed to hold governing positions or to serve in civil courts.  In many places, the reading of the Torah in Hebrew was forbidden and rabbinic jurisdiction was removed.   The emperor Justinian (527-564 A.D.) created what is known as the “Justinian Code.  A portion of the Justinian Code revokes all civil rights for Jews. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, gathering in public places, celebrating Passover before Easter, or give evidence in a judicial case in which a Christian was a party.

In 1171 A.D., the Jews of north central France (Blois) were accused of killing Christian infants and using their blood in the ritual of Passover.  The Jews were accused of being nonhumans who were born of the devil and needed to drink human blood to maintain their human appearance.  On May 25, 1171, every member of the small Jewish community of Blois were burned at the stake.  It should be recalled that similar accusations were leveled against the Jews living in Norwich England in 1144 A.D

In 1190 A.D., the Jews of England were officially deemed the slaves of King Richard “The Lion Hearted” and the decree was approved by Pope Pius III who was instrumental in the formation of the Inquisitions in 1215 A.D.

Contempt for the Jews was so strong, that when the Black Plague infested Europe in 1348 A.D., the Jewish people were blamed for it. False stories were concocted that Jewish magicians had created the plague. In fact, by the time the Pope had finally declared that the Jewish people were innocent in creating the plague, thousands of Jewish people had already been burned to death on a scaffold over a large pit. 

Jewish people were expelled:

• from England (1290)
• from France (1306 and 1394)
• from Hungary (1349 and 1360)
• from Germany (1348 and 1498)
• from Austria (1421)
• from Lithuania (1445 and 1495)
• from Spain (1492)
• from Portugal (1497)
   

 Here is what some of the early Church Fathers had to say about the Jews.

 

St. Gregory:

“ Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.”

St. Jerome:

“....serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas ... their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys..”
 

John Chrysostom – Known in his day as the “golden tongued preacher”:

“I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time... This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots ... A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse.  What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals ... not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal ... When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced.  By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. 

"Jews are the most worthless of men - they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious - they are perfidious murderers of Christians, they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness ... The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation, no indulgence, no pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance. The Jews must live in servitude forever. It is incumbent on all Christians to hate the Jews.  I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews."

Source: (Homilies Against the Jews" in Patrologia Graeca)
 

Peter the Venerable:

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

Martin Luther

Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years?”. . . For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. . . . Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God.

Now, compare the above with the words of Adolf Hitler: 

“I believe that I am today acting according to the purposes of the Almighty Creator. In resisting the Jew, I am fighting the Lord’s battle.”

There is again, nearly 2 centuries of Christians making plainly clear how they view the Jewish people.  And then Christians can't seem to understand, why Jews don't want to accept Jesus.  It really demonstrates an active hatred of the Jews to hold that line of reasoning.

[missmuffet]

I have studied and read many book on the Holocaust and the Jews and the Germans during WW2. You gave us a good explaination shiloh...thanks

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Joline said:

Shiloh, think about it......So many Jew's themselves LIVING IT, did not realize the reality of what was happening.....................UNTIL it was too late, and could not escape and died..........But we in other countries knew?

That makes no sense.

That is simply not true.   They didn't believe the rumors that were circulating at the very start before the Holocaust began.  They saw themselves as Germans, that Hitler would not be so crazy.  They believed the were perfectly safe.   Of course they knew when it started and when it was happening.  You seem to be a bit historically challenged on that.   When it started is when it was too late to escape.   And we knew what was going on.   And we could have bombed the train tracks leading to the camps, but we didn't.   We could have bombed the oil factories at night when the Jews were not working in them, but we didn't.  But we knew what was going on.  Don't kid yourself.   We knew.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

That is simply not true.   They didn't believe the rumors that were circulating at the very start before the Holocaust began.  They saw themselves as Germans, that Hitler would not be so crazy.  They believed the were perfectly safe.   Of course they knew when it started and when it was happening.  You seem to be a bit historically challenged on that.   When it started is when it was too late to escape.   And we knew what was going on.   And we could have bombed the train tracks leading to the camps, but we didn't.   We could have bombed the oil factories at night when the Jews were not working in them, but we didn't.  But we knew what was going on.  Don't kid yourself.   We knew.

Yeah they thought it was rumors themselves, yet there were camps. They did not believe it until it was too late for them. that is history my friend.

And you expect so much more of us in another country? How were Jew's treated here. That is the issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

I don't find this to be a sufficient explanation for why Jewish people do not feel inclined to accept Christ today.

Of course you don't.  You don't particularly care for Jews, you have a heart that is really hardened against them and so it wouldn't matter what they say.   Funny how we don't treat other unbelievers that way.   The Jews have suffered from over 1700 years of hatred coming from the church, but that is not a sufficient explanation for their unbelief, but we accommodate other nonbelievers for whatever reason they have for rejecting Jesus.  We don't diminish or brush off their reasons.  If someone has rejected Jesus because they were hurt by a Christian person, we treat that seriously and we don't tell them that they are just making excuses.  We try to be sensitive and help them.    But if it's a Jew, all bets are off.   And any explanation they give for their resistance to the Gospel is twisted into some evil excuse.