A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[enoob57]

When the spirit of this thread has so revealed itself ... I don't think I'm going to initiate dialogue... Love, Steven 

[OakWood]

41 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

When the spirit of this thread has so revealed itself ... I don't think I'm going to initiate dialogue... Love, Steven 

Maybe you think that I am deceived - and as a good Christian you should be able to correct me and put my fears to rest over the ten points that I raised. But you're not going to..... ?

Maybe you do not want to address my points. Thanks for your concern. Thanks for not answering my questions. But as a pre-Tribber you should be able to answer these questions if your conviction is so strong.

But then again - maybe you cannot refute them. Maybe you have lost the argument.

I came here to give pre-Tribbers a chance to champion their claim, but they haven't done so, at least not successfully.

I wasn't completely convinced of my post-Trib/pre-Wrath position, but I get more convinced with each reply. I think I fell off the fence onto the right side....

[RustyAngeL]

11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brother,,,,,,,,,,,,Oak

There are 4 options   pre? mid? post? pan?,,,,,,,,    

The 4th         It will  all pan out in the end,Praise Jesus!                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

 

Agreed, it's always about Jesus in the end.  Thanks Kwik.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

When the spirit of this thread has so revealed itself ... I don't think I'm going to initiate dialogue... Love, Steven 

 

1 hour ago, OakWood said:

Maybe you think that I am deceived - and as a good Christian you should be able to correct me and put my fears to rest over the ten points that I raised. But you're not going to..... ?

Maybe you do not want to address my points. Thanks for your concern. Thanks for not answering my questions. But as a pre-Tribber you should be able to answer these questions if your conviction is so strong.

But then again - maybe you cannot refute them. Maybe you have lost the argument.

I came here to give pre-Tribbers a chance to champion their claim, but they haven't done so, at least not successfully.

I wasn't completely convinced of my post-Trib/pre-Wrath position, but I get more convinced with each reply. I think I fell off the fence onto the right side....

Col 4:6
6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
KJV
I would say that there are Godly men on both sides of the issue as Godly- their lives and Words align with God's... where there
are issues each man must prepare his heart to answer before God the hope that is in them!  Love, Steven

[OakWood]

13 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

 

Col 4:6
6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
KJV
I would say that there are Godly men on both sides of the issue as Godly- their lives and Words align with God's... where there
are issues each man must prepare his heart to answer before God the hope that is in them!  Love, Steven

Good advice.... I accept it. Now would you please address my ten points if you can? If you can't then I understand.... but you're on the wrong thread.

[enoob57]

21 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Good advice.... I accept it. Now would you please address my ten points if you can? If you can't then I understand.... but you're on the wrong thread.

I will but not now as I am weary and apt to error!  Love, Steven

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, OakWood said:

IF YOU CAN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL then I really don't want to converse with you again. I'm surprised by you, I thought you were better than that, I really did.

This is uncalled for but it also reveals that you are on shaky ground.

[OakWood]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

This is uncalled for but it also reveals that you are on shaky ground.

No you are. Answer these questions and don't run away from them.

Do you think that God punishes the righteous? If you think that the Tribulation is a judgement of God then why are only the righteous being punished? Does God punish the righteous? Did he punish Noah and Lot or did he rescue them?

Why during the Tribulation is the antiChrist punishing those who refuse to serve him by beheading them? Why does he punish believers by not allowing them to buy or sell? If you think that the Tribulation is a punishment from God then you can't know God.

The Tribulation is NOT a judgement of God. If you think that it is then you must believe that the antiChrist is God, because during the Tribulation it is the antiChrist who carries out wrath against those who refuse to bow down to him.

The judgement of God comes at the end of the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns and destroys the antiChrist!

If you can't understand the difference between good and evil then I pity you.

Christians are being punished and the sinners are rewarded - in your eyes this is a judgement of God. Christians are persecuted and beheaded for practising their faith - in your eyes this is a judgement of God. Christians refuse to take the mark of the Beast and they are punished for not taking the mark - in your eyes this is a judgement from God. Whose eyes do you really see through?

So according to you, Noah and his family should have drowned but everybody else should be left alive, because God punishes only the righteous  -right?

So according to you Lot should have burned in Sodom but every other citizen of that city should have been spared - because God only punishes the righteous and saves the wicked. Is that right?

...and during the Great Tribulation God is punishing those who refuse to take the mark by beheading them - because God only punishes the righteous and spares those who take the mark, because God really loves it when people take the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast... but he hates righteous people who refuse to take the mark - well according to you he does!

So is the Tribulation a judgement of God or not? Since when has God been in the business of punishing righteous people but sparing sinners? Give me one example from the Bible where God takes vengeance upon the righteous by destroying them but spares all the bad people!

The Great Tribulation is an act of the antiChrist. God allows it to happen but then he stops it and takes revenge and judges the wicked. God's judgement is the wrath that comes afterwards, it is NOT the Tribulation itself!

 

 

 

[FresnoJoe]

33 minutes ago, OakWood said:

So is the Tribulation
a judgement of God or not?

As I See It The Tribulation

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Zechariah 13:8-9

Will Draw The Remnant Of Israel To Jesus

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.  Hosea 5:15

And, As He Descends He Will Resurrect

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Romans 11:15

The Just To

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Himself

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 1:14-15

As I See It

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

~

Beloved, Even This Terrible Wrath Of Man Will Honor Jesus

Surely the wrath of man shall praise you; the remnant of wrath you will put on like a belt. Psalms 76:10 (English Standard Version)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Revelation Man]

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

1/ No real mention of pre-Trib having happened in Book of Revelation.

 

Hello Brother in Christ. I will add my 2 cents worth. Paul called the Rapture or Hapazo (snatching away) a mystery. But in the bible, there are deep truths that shines the light on other truths. For instance in Rev. 19, there was much people in heaven in verse 1, then we marry the Lamb, put on white linen which is the righteousness of the Saints, ride white horses back with Jesus, and guess who is still on earth ? That's right, the Beast/Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies, awaiting to do battle with Jesus and us Saints, even though Jesus destroys them with the Sword of the Spirit. Without Hand. Do you catch the deep truth here ? How can the church be in heaven while the wicked men of the world are still on earth, without a Rapture ? It is not possible.

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

2/ No significant mention in scripture.

 

The word Harpazo was what Paul the Apostle used, Rapio is the Latin word for snatched away or seized, Rapture comes from Rapio, so it was used by Paul almost 2000 years ago.

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

3/ Pre-Trib suggests a third coming of Christ.

 

Jesus calls us with a loud voice, we who have the Holy Spirit go to meet him in the air, and we then go to the Marriage Feast which by Jewish traditions usually lasts a week. Jesus came back a few times after he descended, he told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet descended to the Father, then he told Thomas to put his hands in his wounds 8 days later. Jesus is in the midst of us all when two are more are gathered, in Spirit I know here, but still,  Jesus calling us to Heaven, is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming is in Rev. 19, and we Saints come back with him, from Heaven.

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

4/ Pre-Tribbers place great emphasis on the Church not being mentioned in future prophecy as if this somehow indicates that Christians are no longer around during the Tribulation.

 

These are pretty much the same, will answer below.

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

5/ Some pre-Tribbers (but not all) seem to think that the 'Holy Spirit' is the restrainer.

 

Israel was Gods chosen people, because she sinned against God, and rejected God/Jesus the mantle of the dispensation of God's Holy Word was given unto the Gentiles, Jesus said that Jerusalem will be trodden under foot until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled............That denotes an ending point. After the Rapture of Christians it is again upon the Jewish nation to preach the gospel, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses etc. And the Holy Spirit is restraining or Blocking Satan from bringing the Anti-Christ/Beast to power, until his time, so he is only restraining the Anti-Christ until he (Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way by God or ordered to stop blocking Satan from bringing this Man of Sin to power. I do not for one second think the Holy Spirit leaves the earth, some think so, I don't, but the tribulation is only for Seven years, the judgments last 3 1/2 years, so everyone should be able to remember that which was preached unto them before the Rapture happened. And the Saints during the Rapture are new concerts. They are the Remnant (small part of) of the Woman's Seed (Jesus was that Seed said Paul in Galatians 3).

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

6/ Why would God rescue Christians from the wrath of evil when he has never done this before? Why do today's Christians believe that they are so special?

 

So you don't think the Seals are Gods Judgments ? 6:16 clearly says that these men hid from the Wrath of the Lamb. God is symmetrical, He doesn't do things willy nilly, the Anti-Christ (First seal) Red Horse, Black Horse and Pale Green Horse are all God's Wrath, the 5th Seal is those that died by his hands, they want vengeance on those people on earth (denotes present tense, not past tense). Why would God need us to go through His wrath ? He is not angry at us. Jesus accepted Gods wrath for us. We are saved by Faith in Jesus, not by works.

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

7/ Some pre-Tribbers claim that the reason they are not interested in knowing the identity of the anti-Christ is because they won't be there. Their lack of interest in studying the Great Tribulation is caused by their belief that it doesn't apply to them.

 

I think most just say they refuse to be preoccupied with that which confuses them. I have an End Time Biblical Prophecy site on Disqus and a blog elsewhere that says exactly what country the Anti-Christ is from. So I am not in that camp....SMILE. It is important for us to know so we can warn others, many of who no doubt will be left because they chose not to serve Christ.

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

8/ Some pre-Tribbers think that the Church is the great restrainer.

 

You can look at it like that, however that is not reality, but the reality is we will be gone before he comes to power. So either way, we are gone. 

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

9/ Pre-Tribbers believe that God 'cutting the time short' is proof of a pre-Trib rapture.

 

God is only saying that if He had "Planned" the Great Tribulation for a longer period than 7 Years, no life would have been left. But God planned it for 7 years, not 10 or 20, that is why He is so Smart, He knows everything........SMILE.

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:02 AM, OakWood said:

10/ Pre-tribbers are not playing the game

The game of life is something that we all participate in. Pre-Tribbers hope to be able to opt out of the game when the play gets too rough for them. Jesus warns us:

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

We are saved by Faith in Jesus....Sorry ole Satan, Game Over. As per the verse they shall deliver you up ti be afflicted and killed. That verse is not about the Tribulation, imho, only in verse 15 does Jesus say when the end will be, and that is after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, then the end will come. The very next verse is about the Abomination of Desolation, so the verse you cited has to be way before the end times doesn't it brother ? 

 

God Bless.