Should we be looking for the same Return?

[Ezra]

20 minutes ago, Kan said:

How do these apply exclusively to the rapture?

1. We must view the coming of Christ FOR His saints as the Resurrection/Rapture. This is all one event which will take place in a fraction of a second.

2. There is one group of saints who died in Christ.  Their spirits and souls went to be with Christ, while their bodies "slept" in their graves. At the Rapture, Christ brings all these saints with Him to be reunited with their immortal, glorified, and glorious spiritual bodies.

3. AT THE SAME TIME, there will be saints on earth who are alive. They will simply be perfected, and also receive immortal, glorified, and glorious spiritual bodies.

4. Then all the saints will rise together to meet the Lord in the air,  return to Heaven, and then remain evermore with the Lord.

5. The last trump is the last trumpet call for the Church.  It is called "the trump of God", and has nothing whatsoever to do with the seven trumpets by seven angels to announce a series of seven severe judgements on the earth. This has been the source of a lot of confusion since the word "trumpet" is common to both salvation and judgement.

6. Christ does not come for His saints, and then turns around and comes with His saints (and angels) for the battle of Armageddon.  That would be absurd. Between the Rapture and the Revelation there are two key events for the Church: (1) the Judgement Seat of Christ and (2) the Marriage of the Lamb.

[Kan]

19 minutes ago, Ezra said:

1. We must view the coming of Christ FOR His saints as the Resurrection/Rapture. This is all one event which will take place in a fraction of a second.

2. There is one group of saints who died in Christ.  Their spirits and souls went to be with Christ, while their bodies "slept" in their graves. At the Rapture, Christ brings all these saints with Him to be reunited with their immortal, glorified, and glorious spiritual bodies.

3. AT THE SAME TIME, there will be saints on earth who are alive. They will simply be perfected, and also receive immortal, glorified, and glorious spiritual bodies.

4. Then all the saints will rise together to meet the Lord in the air,  return to Heaven, and then remain evermore with the Lord.

5. The last trump is the last trumpet call for the Church.  It is called "the trump of God", and has nothing whatsoever to do with the seven trumpets by seven angels to announce a series of seven severe judgements on the earth. This has been the source of a lot of confusion since the word "trumpet" is common to both salvation and judgement.

6. Christ does not come for His saints, and then turns around and comes with His saints (and angels) for the battle of Armageddon.  That would be absurd. Between the Rapture and the Revelation there are two key events for the Church: (1) the Judgement Seat of Christ and (2) the Marriage of the Lamb.

That is what the Bible indicates to me, that the rising of the dead and the changing of the living, happens at the same time.

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 5:04 PM, Kan said:

 

At the return of Christ everyone except the faithful die. During the thousand years the earth is lifeless, and only the devil and his angels roam around doing time, until the judgement when there is a second resurrection (the first resurrection happened when Christ came to rescue His own, take them to heaven and destroy the world at the same time). See Revelation 19 to 22.

 

No, after Jesus' return, he will establish an earthly kingdom and the devil will be bound and cast into a pit for 1,000 years.   He will be released at the end of the 1,000 years and then is destroyed when he assaults the kingdom with an army he has raised of the unbelievers that exist during the millennial reign. 

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, Kan said:

Thankyou.

How do these apply exclusively to the rapture?

They don't. It simply says that when Christ returns that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living follow, being caught up together in the clouds. It is logic that if you want them to be lifted together, that you have to raise the dead first, because the living don't need to be brought up from the graves.

Corinthians is the same, just the one event of people being changed so that they can go to heaven. When does this occur? "At the last trumpet" When is the last trump? I Thess 4:16, when Christ returns. The dead are raised and the living are changed.

None of these texts can be exclusively applied to the rapture, can they?

Yes, they can be applied to the rapture. But I will not debate with you over this any longer. It is your choice if you do not want to accept it.

[Ezra]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Further why is it only mentioned on the 7th trumpet in Revelation its time to judge the dead and reward the servants....what other trumpet does this in Revelation if not literally the very last time the word trumpet is mentioned being that of the 7th trumpet?

Please note below that there is nothing about the Rapture in Revelation 11:15-19:

WHAT HAPPENS AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET? (Rev 11:15-19)

 THE END OF EARTHLY KINGDOMS ANNOUNCED

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

THE WORSHIP OF THE 24 ELDERS IN RESPONSE TO THAT

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 THE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT REMAINS

 Armageddon

18 And the nations were angry,

The Second Coming

and thy wrath is come,

The Great White Throne Judgment

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Rewards to the Prophets and the Saints

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

Armageddon

and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

THE ARK OF THE COVENANT SEEN IN HEAVEN

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The above is not necessarily in chronological sequence. To put it into chronological sequence here is how these events occur:

Rewards to the Prophets and the Saints (after the Rapture)

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

The Second Coming

and thy wrath is come,

 Armageddon

18 And the nations were angry,

Armageddon

and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The Establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 The Great White Throne Judgment

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

[Kan]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, after Jesus' return, he will establish an earthly kingdom and the devil will be bound and cast into a pit for 1,000 years.   He will be released at the end of the 1,000 years and then is destroyed when he assaults the kingdom with an army he has raised of the unbelievers that exist during the millennial reign. 

All you need to do now is show a text where it says that when Jesus returns He renovates the earth with His Kingdom on earth.

There are many texts in the old testament which promise Israel earthly success, and a Kingdom where Christ reigns on earth. But the question is when.

The second advent of Christ is so terrible that the earth is annihilated on its surface. Mountain chains sink as if supported by nothing, islands disappear, the atmosphere dissolves and rolls back to the polar regions, chunks of land and huge rocks are thrown into the stratosphere, the ocean is evaporated under the cloud of angels, and the ocean floor melts from the heat.

The enemies of God who received the mark and enforced it are killed without mercy, all of them, the chaff of the nations is blown away in the wind.

When Jesus was about to leave earth, He said to the disciples that He was going back to heaven, to the Father, and that He was going to prepare a place for them so that they can live with Him. That is heaven, and the disciples are not there in heaven yet, they are in the grave, returned to dust, and when Christ returns they are resurrected and taken to His place in heaven. Not on earth, until after the judgement as John says, when heaven comes down to earth and settles here. Then the earth is made new.

[Kan]

5 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

Yes, they can be applied to the rapture. But I will not debate with you over this any longer. It is your choice if you do not want to accept it.

I agree, they can be applied to the rapture, but not exclusively. The Rapture is an addition to the Bible, it's not even written in there.

[missmuffet]

Just now, Kan said:

I agree, they can be applied to the rapture, but not exclusively. The Rapture is an addition to the Bible, it's not even written in there.

You are right the word "rapture" is not written in the Bible just as the word " Holy Trinity" is not written in the Bible.

[Ezra]

5 minutes ago, Kan said:

The Rapture is an addition to the Bible, it's not even written in there.

You should have done some research before making such a statement.

Greek harpagesometha = caught up together = Latin rapiermur = English Rapture

[Ezra]

14 minutes ago, Kan said:

All you need to do now is show a text where it says that when Jesus returns He renovates the earth with His Kingdom on earth.

That's not how it works.  The New Heavens and the New Earth come after the Millennium and some other events (Revelation 20-22).