Liberal and Christianity

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Qnts2 said:

You referenced a post as trying to correct this thread which was focused on abortion.

I consider myself a conservative leaning person but I also believe in abortion as a possible choice if the life of the mother is at risk.

That is a nonstarter.  Medical advances are such that we are able today, to save both mother and baby.   Abortion should be 100% illegal.   Even when we did not have as advanced technology as we do today, when given the choice, mothers always opted to save the baby even at the expense of her own life.  That's the God-given maternal instinct that kicks in.  Good mothers always give their lives for their babies.

[Qnts2]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is a nonstarter.  Medical advances are such that we are able today, to save both mother and baby.   Abortion should be 100% illegal.   Even when we did not have as advanced technology as we do today, when given the choice, mothers always opted to save the baby even at the expense of her own life.  That's the God-given maternal instinct that kicks in.  Good mothers always give their lives for their babies.

Well, let's start by ending the myth that the medical field is about to save both mother and baby.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maternal-deaths-in-childbirth-rise-in-the-us/2014/05/02/abf7df96-d229-11e3-9e25-188ebe1fa93b_story.html

Second myth. A mother of multiple young children, cares about all of her children. Many mothers will choose to live for their living children rather then die, leaving her existing children motherless. Sometimes the problem is due to a complication which kills the unborn baby, and puts the mother at risk of dying or bleeding out.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Well, let's start by ending the myth that the medical field is about to save both mother and baby.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maternal-deaths-in-childbirth-rise-in-the-us/2014/05/02/abf7df96-d229-11e3-9e25-188ebe1fa93b_story.html

Second myth. A mother of multiple young children, cares about all of her children. Many mothers will choose to live for their living children rather then die, leaving her existing children motherless. Sometimes the problem is due to a complication which kills the unborn baby, and puts the mother at risk of dying or bleeding out.

Interesting, but I am interested in actual truth, not some liberal rag and what it has to say.

Abortions are NEVER done to save the life of the mother.  Ectopic pregnancies are terminated to save the life of the mother, but the procedure for ending that pregnancy requires removing the fallopian tube along with the baby.  That is not an abortion.   But that is what is done if necessary to save the life of the mother.   The purpose is not to terminate the life of the baby, even though the baby will die. The purpose is to end the pregnancy, not kill the baby.   There is a moral distinction between  ending a pregnancy and purposely terminating the life of the baby.  Abortions are only ever done to terminate the life of the baby.

Abortion is about murdering babies and in every case, the purpose of an abortion is killing the baby, not saving the mother.  No one goes to Planned Parenthood because their life is in danger and they are about to die and abortions are not done to save mothers' lives.  

The Christian position is 100% pro-life, no exceptions. 

[Qnts2]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Interesting, but I am interested in actual truth, not some liberal rag and what it has to say.

Abortions are NEVER done to save the life of the mother.  Ectopic pregnancies are terminated to save the life of the mother, but the procedure for ending that pregnancy requires removing the fallopian tube along with the baby.  That is not an abortion.   But that is what is done if necessary to save the life of the mother.   The purpose is not to terminate the life of the baby, even though the baby will die. The purpose is to end the pregnancy, not kill the baby.   There is a moral distinction between  ending a pregnancy and purposely terminating the life of the baby.  Abortions are only ever done to terminate the life of the baby.

Abortion is about murdering babies and in every case, the purpose of an abortion is killing the baby, not saving the mother.  No one goes to Planned Parenthood because their life is in danger and they are about to die and abortions are not done to save mothers' lives.  

The Christian position is 100% pro-life, no exceptions. 

Christianity is 100% pro-life, but pro-life must include the life of the mother. Christianity has no right to demand the death of the mother in favor of the baby. If Christianity sentenced the mother to death, Christianity is no longer pro-life.

The term abortion is a generic term which describes the various surgical procedures to terminate a pregnancy. 

Just a few conditions in which the life of the mother is at high risk for dying if she should continue the pregnancy or attempt to deliver the baby and there is no effective treatment.

1. Pre-eclampsia- while it typically occurs after 20 weeks, it can occur before 20 weeks. 20 weeks is the length of pregnancy when the baby, although premature, has a chance of surviving.  In a severe case of pre-eclampsia occurring prior to 20 weeks, the only cure is to terminate the pregnancy when the baby is not yet viable. 

2. Pre-existing conditions such as liver or kidney diseases can become life threatening during pregnancy.

3. Cardiovascular disorders such as pulmonary hypertension and vessel abnormalities can also become life threatening during pregnancy.

There are other conditions which can cause a mother to die because of pregnancy. Sadly, the number of deaths due to complications during pregnancy is on the rise. I do not believe we have an accurate number because most women faced with this choice probably get an abortion before the pregnancy becomes fatal. Reasons for an abortion are not reported. So we know more women are dying due to pregnancy but do not know how many more women would have potentially died had they not chosen to have an abortion when faced with that life or death decision.

I believe it is immoral to tell a mother of 3 young children that she must die because the only medical treatment which would save her life is outlawed, with no exceptions to save her life.    

 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Christianity is 100% pro-life, but pro-life must include the life of the mother.

No one said otherwise

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 Christianity has no right to demand the death of the mother in favor of the baby.

Who is doing that?  I have never heard a pro-life Christian demand the death of a mother.  Maybe you ought to stick with responding to what people actually say instead of assigning to them things they never said.  Do you think you manage that?

 

Quote

The term abortion is a generic term which describes the various surgical procedures to terminate a pregnancy. 

No, abortion refers to a particular set of procedures that are purposed to terminate (murder) the life of a child.  Abortions are about killing babies, not saving mothers.  

Quote

 

Just a few conditions in which the life of the mother is at high risk for dying if she should continue the pregnancy or attempt to deliver the baby and there is no effective treatment.

1. Pre-eclampsia- while it typically occurs after 20 weeks, it can occur before 20 weeks. 20 weeks is the length of pregnancy when the baby, although premature, has a chance of surviving.  In a severe case of pre-eclampsia occurring prior to 20 weeks, the only cure is to terminate the pregnancy when the baby is not yet viable. 

2. Pre-existing conditions such as liver or kidney diseases can become life threatening during pregnancy.

3. Cardiovascular disorders such as pulmonary hypertension and vessel abnormalities can also become life threatening during pregnancy.

There are other conditions which can cause a mother to die because of pregnancy. Sadly, the number of deaths due to complications during pregnancy is on the rise. I do not believe we have an accurate number because most women faced with this choice probably get an abortion before the pregnancy becomes fatal. Reasons for an abortion are not reported. So we know more women are dying due to pregnancy but do not know how many more women would have potentially died had they not chosen to have an abortion when faced with that life or death decision.

 

We have the ability to do open heart surgery and other forms of surgery on babies still in the womb.  Our medical advances in these are enormous and conditions that could have jeopardized mother and child 15-20 years ago are no longer a threat. 

There is difference between terminating a pregnancy and murdering a baby.  Abortion is murder.   There are medical procedures for saving the life of the mother where the death of the baby is an unfortunate occurance, but was not the objective of the procedure.  There is nothing about actual abortions that have anything to do with saving the life of the mother.

What YOU want to do is lump everything together and call them abortions and that is immoral.   Saving the life of the mother wherein a pregnancy is terminated is not murder and is thus not abortion.  If you disagree, you are wrong,  period. 

 

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I believe it is immoral to tell a mother of 3 young children that she must die because the only medical treatment which would save her life is outlawed, with no exceptions to save her life.    

The Christian position is anti-Abortion without exception.   The problem is that you have erroneous idea about what should be called, "abortion"  thus making your position completely wrong.

[Ezra]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Abortions are about killing babies, not saving mothers.  

There's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Abortion is murder, whether the child is one day old or ninety days old.  Women who do not wish to have children have many options to avoid pregnancy.  However, once a child is conceived, a human being is resident within the womb.  Politicians, judges, and the medical profession have created fictions, and now everyone is supposed to believe their nonsense.

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

Fact #8: Less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother.

http://www.nrlc.org/archive/abortion/pba/HowOftenAbortionNecessarySaveMother.pdf

October 19, 2012

Everett Koop, M.D., former U.S. Surgeon General:

“Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36

years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted

to save the mother’s life. . . . If, toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that

threaten the mother’s health, he will take the child by inducing labor or performing a Caesarean

section. His intention is still to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby will be

premature and perhaps immature depending on the length of gestation. Because it has suddenly

been taken out of the protective womb, it may encounter threats to its survival. The baby is never

willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger.”

You missed my view. I am against abortion, except, I would allow an abortion to save the life of the mother. So, my belief would reduce the number of abortions by perhaps 99%.

When it comes to choosing the life of the mother vs. the life of the baby, I do not believe we can deny a person the choice about who dies. Therefore, as a medical procedure to save a life, I think it should remain a legal option.

And you are right. If the baby is 20 weeks, or more, labor can be induced or there can be a caesarean section, but if the mother can not survive to the 20 week mark or the health of the other is irreparably damaged by waiting for the 20 week mark, I still believe the law should not dictate whose life is there to be an attempt to save.

There are indeed recorded instances of mothers dying in child birth and those numbers are rising. There are indeed recorded instances of mothers getting abortions to save their lives.

[Qnts2]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No one said otherwise

Who is doing that?  I have never heard a pro-life Christian demand the death of a mother.  Maybe you ought to stick with responding to what people actually say instead of assigning to them things they never said.  Do you think you manage that?

 

 

You were demanding the death of the mother by saying abortion should be 100% illegal with no exceptions. If the mother will die due to the pregnancy and other health issues being exacerbated , and I have already listed the complications which would cause that to happen, and abortion is 100% illegal, no exceptions, by law, you are demanding the pregnancy continue which will cause the death of the mother. Simple logic.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Qnts2 said:

You were demanding the death of the mother by saying abortion should be 100% illegal with no exceptions.

Not true.  Since we can save the mother without abortions, the "Life of the Mother"  exception is no longer relevant.

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 If the mother will die due to the pregnancy and other health issues being exacerbated , and I have already listed the complications which would cause that to happen, and abortion is 100% illegal, no exceptions, by law, you are demanding the pregnancy continue which will cause the death of the mother. Simple logic.

Nope, no logic in that remark at all.   I never said that mothers should just die.   I said that we are medically able to save the life of the mother without abortions.   Try actually responding to my comments instead of reacting to what you have tried to assign to me.

[Qnts2]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Not true.  Since we can save the mother without abortions, the "Life of the Mother"  exception is no longer relevant.

Nope, no logic in that remark at all.   I never said that mothers should just die.   I said that we are medically able to save the life of the mother without abortions.   Try actually responding to my comments instead of reacting to what you have tried to assign to me.

Except, you are simply denying that there are medical issues which lead to the death of the mother which can not be resolved without terminating the pregnancy. I gave a short list. There are more. But, the fact they exist is an inconvenient truth for you.