Liberal and Christianity

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Except, you are simply denying that there are medical issues which lead to the death of the mother which can not be resolved without terminating the pregnancy. I gave a short list. There are more. But, the fact they exist is an inconvenient truth for you.

Actually, if you were paying attention, I made the necessary moral distinction between terminating a pregnancy and murdering a baby.     In abortion, there is only one goal:  Kill the baby.   Planned Parenthood does not save mothers' lives and never has.     Terminating a pregnancy due to medical complications that will kill the mother and kill the baby do not fall under the category of "abortion."

YOU are trying to lump what Planned Parenthood does with genuine medical procedures that save the life of the mother in a real hospital.   You can't simply lump all of those things together as "abortion."    Abortion is not a generic term.  It is particular set of procedures simply murder the baby in the womb.   

The procedures for something like an ectopic pregnancy are not abortion even though the baby dies because the goal is not to kill the baby.  The baby will die anyway.  The mother's life is saved in that procedure.  That is a genuine medical procedure that is not about murdering baby as its goal.

I am not denying anything.  I am simply pointing out that that list is resolved by procedures that are not used by abortion clinics and are not classified as abortions.

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually, if you were paying attention, I made the necessary moral distinction between terminating a pregnancy and murdering a baby.     In abortion, there is only one goal:  Kill the baby.   Planned Parenthood does not save mothers' lives and never has.     Terminating a pregnancy due to medical complications that will kill the mother and kill the baby do not fall under the category of "abortion."

YOU are trying to lump what Planned Parenthood does with genuine medical procedures that save the life of the mother in a real hospital.   You can't simply lump all of those things together as "abortion."    Abortion is not a generic term.  It is particular set of procedures simply murder the baby in the womb.   

The procedures for something like an ectopic pregnancy are not abortion even though the baby dies because the goal is not to kill the baby.  The baby will die anyway.  The mother's life is saved in that procedure.  That is a genuine medical procedure that is not about murdering baby as its goal.

I am not denying anything.  I am simply pointing out that that list is resolved by procedures that are not used by abortion clinics and are not classified as abortions.

An ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion because the location of the baby is in the fallopian tubes. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy where the baby is in the uterus. Since the location is different, the name and process is different. One involves the removing of the fallopian tube. The other involves the termination of the pregnancy. 

While there are other issues which can lead to the risk of death of the mother, the best example in my view is that of preeclampsia.  Preeclampsia is directly related or caused by being pregnant and the only way to 'cure' preeclampsia is to terminate the pregnancy. If extreme preeclamsia occurs prior to a gestation of 20 weeks, the baby is almost never viable, and waiting is risking the death of the mother. Of course if the mother dies before the baby is viable, the baby also dies. Abortion, the termination of a pregnancy, is sometimes the only option. 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Qnts2 said:

An ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion because the location of the baby is in the fallopian tubes. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy where the baby is in the uterus. Since the location is different, the name and process is different. One involves the removing of the fallopian tube. The other involves the termination of the pregnancy. 

 

No, removing the fallopian tubes is terminating a pregnancy.  Abortion is purposely killing the baby.  

Quote

While there are other issues which can lead to the risk of death of the mother, the best example in my view is that of preeclampsia.  Preeclampsia is directly related or caused by being pregnant and the only way to 'cure' preeclampsia is to terminate the pregnancy. If extreme preeclamsia occurs prior to a gestation of 20 weeks, the baby is almost never viable, and waiting is risking the death of the mother. Of course if the mother dies before the baby is viable, the baby also dies. Abortion, the termination of a pregnancy, is sometimes the only option. 

That is not an abortion.  The purpose of that procedure is to save the mother, not kill the baby.   The purpose of an abortion is to kill a baby.  If the purpose of the procedure is saving the mother's life, then it is not an abortion even if the collateral result is the loss of the baby.  That's the only correct way to look at it.

[ayin jade]

3 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

An ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion because the location of the baby is in the fallopian tubes. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy where the baby is in the uterus. Since the location is different, the name and process is different. One involves the removing of the fallopian tube. The other involves the termination of the pregnancy. 

While there are other issues which can lead to the risk of death of the mother, the best example in my view is that of preeclampsia.  Preeclampsia is directly related or caused by being pregnant and the only way to 'cure' preeclampsia is to terminate the pregnancy. If extreme preeclamsia occurs prior to a gestation of 20 weeks, the baby is almost never viable, and waiting is risking the death of the mother. Of course if the mother dies before the baby is viable, the baby also dies. Abortion, the termination of a pregnancy, is sometimes the only option. 

Preeclampsia is treated by many ways. Abortion is not the standard treatment of preeclampsia.

[Qnts2]

12 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Preeclampsia is treated by many ways. Abortion is not the standard treatment of preeclampsia.

I agree, preeclampsia is treated in many ways. Unless it is a severe case, which can develop into eclampsia. There is only one way to prevent the deadly outcome and that is terminating the pregnancy. If the baby is not close enough to full term, the result of terminating the pregnancy will mean the death of the baby.

There are many different methods of doing an abortion.

I will go to Mirriam Webster:

Abortion:

1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: 

2. a :  spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage

3. b :  induced expulsion of a human fetus

Both 1  and 3 match the process used to treat severe preeclampsia. 1 indicates an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy but the timing of the death of the baby can be before, during or after. 3 is the induced expulsion which is what occurs when the pregnancy must be terminated due to severe preeclampsia. If the baby is not viable, the induced expulsion will result in the death of the baby.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Qnts2 said:

I agree, preeclampsia is treated in many ways. Unless it is a severe case, which can develop into eclampsia. There is only one way to prevent the deadly outcome and that is terminating the pregnancy. If the baby is not close enough to full term, the result of terminating the pregnancy will mean the death of the baby.

There are many different methods of doing an abortion.

I will go to Mirriam Webster:

Abortion:

1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: 

2. a :  spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage

3. b :  induced expulsion of a human fetus

Both 1  and 3 match the process used to treat severe preeclampsia. 1 indicates an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy but the timing of the death of the baby can be before, during or after. 3 is the induced expulsion which is what occurs when the pregnancy must be terminated due to severe preeclampsia. If the baby is not viable, the induced expulsion will result in the death of the baby.

That is misinformation.    Here are the procedures for abortion: 

Dilation and curettage

 

This method is employed during the first trimester of pregnancy.  In this method the cervix is dilated and the surgeon inserts an instrument into the womb and scrapes the wall of  the uterus and basically cuts the baby into pieces, as well as removing the placenta (p. 74).

 

Suction abortion

 

This is the method used during the first trimester of a pregnancy.  80% of abortions are done this way (p. 74). It is employed along with Dilation and curettage.  After the cervix is dilated, the tube for suction is placed in the womb and the baby is sucked out piece by piece, as well as sucking out the placenta as well. The suction is several times that of the average vacuum cleaner (pp. 74-75).

 

Saline injection abortion

 

This method is used during the second trimester.  It is the preferred method because D & C and suction could cause hemorrhaging.  A long needle goes into the woman’s stomach and into her water sac and a concentrated solution of salt is released.  The baby take in the salt and is poisoned.  The solution also burns off the top layer of skin.   The baby dies a slow painful death and the next day, the mother delivers a dead baby. (p. 75)

 

Hysterotomy

 

This is a method that must be employed during the final trimester due to the size of the baby.   It is, in practice, the same as a C-section, but is used to kill the baby instead of saving it. The baby is alive when removed but allowed to die while being neglected. (p. 75)

 

Dilation and Extraction/Dilation and Evacuation:  The Feinbergs are bit confusing here.  Make sure to look at both pages 70 - 72 as well as page 75.

 

These are the methods employed in what is called “partial birth abortions” and are intended for use during the second and third trimester.  It amounts delivering the baby partially feet first and puncturing the skull, removing the brains and thus killing the baby.  The baby can be removed part-by-part, or all at once. It is has been a hotly fought battle by pro-life forces trying to get this outlawed.  Congress tried ban this procedure, but it was vetoed by Bill Clinton.   The procedure was banned during the Bush Administration in 2003.  It was challenged and upheld by the Supreme Court in 2006.

 

Abortion is for the killing of babies.   Termination of pregnancies are not always for the purpose of killing babies and you need to make that moral distinction.   Abortions terminate the life of the baby on purpose.   The treatment of preeclampsia is not abortive in purpose and you cannot simply act like all termination of pregnancy can be called "abortions."   At least you can't do it with any kind of credibility.

[missmuffet]

A good Obstetrician will be evaluating your symptoms throughout your pregnancy. Abortion is not one of the treatment options. Although if the mother's life is at risk the baby might be delivered early but that is in extreme cases. The usual treatment is usually bedrest, medications,sometime a lengthy hospital stay.

[Qnts2]

4 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

A good Obstetrician will be evaluating your symptoms throughout your pregnancy. Abortion is not one of the treatment options. Although if the mother's life is at risk the baby might be delivered early but that is in extreme cases. The usual treatment is usually bedrest, medications,sometime a lengthy hospital stay.

That is correct for pre-eclampsia unless it is severe. In a severe case, bed rest, medications or a lengthy hospital stay does not releave the potential for death. The only 'cure' is to end the pregnancy.  If the baby is not viable outside of the womb, inducing birth means the baby dies.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000899.htm

Eclampsia

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Eclampsia is seizures (convulsions) in a pregnant woman. These seizures are not related to an existing brain condition.

Causes

Expand Section

Doctors do not know exactly what causes eclampsia. Factors that may play a role include:

• Blood vessel problems
• Brain and nervous system (neurological) factors
• Diet
• Genes

Eclampsia follows a condition called preeclampsia. This is a serious complication of pregnancy in which a woman has high blood pressure and very rapid weight gain.

Most women with preeclampsia do not go on to have seizures. It is hard to predict which women will. Women at high risk of seizures have severe preeclampsia with findings such as:

• Abnormal blood tests
• Headaches
• Very high blood pressure
• Vision changes

Your chance of getting preeclampsia increases when:

• You are 35 or older
• You are African American
• This is your first pregnancy
• You have diabetes, high blood pressure, or kidney disease
• You are having more than one baby (such as twins or triplets)
• You are a teen

Symptoms

Expand Section

 

Symptoms of eclampsia include:

• Muscle aches and pains
• Seizures
• Severe agitation
• Unconsciousness

Symptoms of preeclampsia include:

• Gaining more than 2 pounds a week
• Headaches
• Nausea and vomiting
• Stomach pain
• Swelling of the hands and face
• Vision problems

 

Treatment

Expand Section

 

The main treatment to prevent severe preeclampsia from progressing to eclampsia is giving birth to the baby. Letting the pregnancy go on can be dangerous for you and the baby.

You may be given medicine to prevent seizures. These medicines are called anticonvulsants.

Your doctor may prescribe medicine to lower high blood pressure. If your blood pressure stays high, delivery may be needed, even if it is before the baby is due.

Possible Complications

Expand Section

 

Women with eclampsia or preeclampsia have a higher risk of:

• Separation of the placenta (placenta abruptio)
• Premature delivery that leads to complications in the baby
• Blood clotting problems

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, Qnts2 said:

That is correct for pre-eclampsia unless it is severe. In a severe case, bed rest, medications or a lengthy hospital stay does not releave the potential for death. The only 'cure' is to end the pregnancy.  If the baby is not viable outside of the womb, inducing birth means the baby dies.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000899.htm

Eclampsia

<span class="js-disabled-message">To use the sharing features on this page, please enable JavaScript.</span>

Eclampsia is seizures (convulsions) in a pregnant woman. These seizures are not related to an existing brain condition.

Causes

Expand Section

Doctors do not know exactly what causes eclampsia. Factors that may play a role include:

• Blood vessel problems
• Brain and nervous system (neurological) factors
• Diet
• Genes

Eclampsia follows a condition called preeclampsia. This is a serious complication of pregnancy in which a woman has high blood pressure and very rapid weight gain.

Most women with preeclampsia do not go on to have seizures. It is hard to predict which women will. Women at high risk of seizures have severe preeclampsia with findings such as:

• Abnormal blood tests
• Headaches
• Very high blood pressure
• Vision changes

Your chance of getting preeclampsia increases when:

• You are 35 or older
• You are African American
• This is your first pregnancy
• You have diabetes, high blood pressure, or kidney disease
• You are having more than one baby (such as twins or triplets)
• You are a teen

Symptoms

Expand Section

 

Symptoms of eclampsia include:

• Muscle aches and pains
• Seizures
• Severe agitation
• Unconsciousness

Symptoms of preeclampsia include:

• Gaining more than 2 pounds a week
• Headaches
• Nausea and vomiting
• Stomach pain
• Swelling of the hands and face
• Vision problems

 

Treatment

Expand Section

 

The main treatment to prevent severe preeclampsia from progressing to eclampsia is giving birth to the baby. Letting the pregnancy go on can be dangerous for you and the baby.

You may be given medicine to prevent seizures. These medicines are called anticonvulsants.

Your doctor may prescribe medicine to lower high blood pressure. If your blood pressure stays high, delivery may be needed, even if it is before the baby is due.

Possible Complications

Expand Section

 

Women with eclampsia or preeclampsia have a higher risk of:

• Separation of the placenta (placenta abruptio)
• Premature delivery that leads to complications in the baby
• Blood clotting problems

A very competent obstetrician will do everything possible to save the mother and baby not hastily suggest an abortion. If that were the case I would definitely ask for a second opinion.

[Qnts2]

19 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

A very competent obstetrician will do everything possible to save the mother and baby not hastily suggest an abortion. If that were the case I would definitely ask for a second opinion.

I agree. If at all possible, get a second opinion. But, sometimes the action taken must be very fast.

( just a quick disclaimer, I am not a physician or a nurse. About 20 years ago, I thought my husband had sleep apnea. We went to his doctor and I described what I observed. The doctors response was, 'that is interesting, if you notice anything else, let me know.' Over the next few months, I recorded my observations but the doctor never said anything more then 'interesting'. I started to research sleep apnea, and found out that the Mayo clinic had done much of the initial research, so I called them and asked for copies of the research papers and papers on various treatments and effectiveness. I got a huge pile, and sat with a dictionary to understand the medical terminology. I also found a clinic in a neighboring state and called them but they said they needed a referral. To keep this from being a long story, I finally got my husband the test and treatment, but since that time, I now do some research and don't just let things go.)