The Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This whole argument ignores the clear meaning of the prophecy, which you have taken out of its full context:

Matt. 24:17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes."

Luke 17:31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it."

Jerusalem is not even mentioned in these parallel passages from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, only Judea. The whole import of the passage has to do with the choice between trusting in things for one's safety, rather than fully trusting in God's protection. Don't take anything, don't look back, just go. That has nothing at all to do with fleeing to the wall by running across rooftops.

Shalom, WilliamL.

I'VE "taken the prophecy out of its full context"?! First, let's define the word "context":

A dictionary definition is...

Quote

context |ˈkäntekst| nounthe circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed: the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending.• the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning:word processing is affected by the context in which words appear.PHRASES in context considered together with the surrounding words or circumstances: it is difficult now to view these masterpieces in context.out of context without the surrounding words or circumstances and so not fully understandable: comments that aides have long insisted were taken out of context.DERIVATIVES contextless adjectiveORIGIN late Middle English (denoting the construction of a text): from Latin contextus, from con- ‘together’ + texere ‘to weave.’

A thesaurus entry is...

Quote

contextnoun1 the wider historical context: circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting.2 a quote taken out of context: frame of reference, contextual relationship; text, subject, theme, topic.

So, a "context," a "weaving together" of the words in one's speech or literature, is directly related to the speaker's or writer's "subject," "theme" and "topic." 

In Writers INC: A Guide to Writing, Thinking, & Learning, edited by Sebranek/Meyer/Kemper, published by Write Source Educational Publishing House, the THEME is "The central idea in a piece of writing (lengthy writings may have several themes); a term used to describe a short essay." The TOPIC is "The specific subject of a piece of writing," and the SUBJECT is a "general idea" the author is intending to convey.

Lucile Vaughan Payne, in her book The Lively Art of Writing, said that the SUBJECT is the choice a writer makes to answer the question, "What shall I write about?" She said, "The only requirement is that the writer know enough about his subject to arrive at some kind of opinion."

So, how does one determine a writer's/speaker's subject, topic, and theme throughout his writing/speech? This is difficult IF the writer/speaker doesn't specifically say. One must use some inductive reasoning, and from the clues of the context, induce what the writer/speaker was trying to write/say.

So, let's open up the ACTUAL context of this discourse to more than just 2 or 3 verses, shall we?

Matthew 24:4-31
4 Yeshua replied: “Watch out! Don’t let anyone fool you! 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray. 6 You will hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off; see to it that you don’t become frightened. Such things must happen, but the end is yet to come. 7 For peoples will fight each other, nations will fight each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various parts of the world; 8 all this is but the beginning of the ‘birth-pains.’ 9 At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death, and all peoples will hate you because of me. 10 At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, 11 many false prophets will appear and fool many people; 12 and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. 13 But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 14 And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come. 

15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place” (let the reader understand the allusion), 16 “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills. 17 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down to gather his belongings from his house; 18 if someone is in the field, he must not turn back to get his coat. 19 What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat. 21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again!  22 Indeed, if the length of this time had not been limited, no one would survive; but for the sake of those who have been chosen, its length will be limited. 

23 “At that time, if someone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ don’t believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible. 25 There! I have told you in advance! 26 So if people say to you, ‘Listen! He’s out in the desert!’ don’t go; or, ‘Look! He’s hidden away in a secret room!’ don’t believe it. 27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures. 

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining, 
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken. 

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.  31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 
CJB

Mark 13:5-27
5 Yeshua began speaking to them: “Watch out! Don’t let anyone fool you! 6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will fool many people. 7 When you hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off, don’t become frightened. Such things must happen, but the end is yet to come. 8 For peoples will fight each other, and nations will fight each other, there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the ‘birth pains.’ 

9 “But you, watch yourselves! They will hand you over to the local Sanhedrins, you will be beaten up in synagogues, and on my account you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 Indeed, the Good News has to be proclaimed first to all the Goyim. 11 Now when they arrest you and bring you to trial, don’t worry beforehand about what to say. Rather, say whatever is given you when the time comes; for it will not be just you speaking, but the Ruach HaKodesh. 12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death; 13 and everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 

14 “Now when you see the abomination that causes devastation standing where it ought not to be” (let the reader understand the allusion), “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills. 15 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down and enter his house to take any of his belongings; 16 if someone is in the field, he must not turn back to get his coat. 17 What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19 For there will be worse trouble at that time than there has ever been from the very beginning, when God created the universe, until now; and there will be nothing like it again.  20 Indeed, if God had not limited the duration of the trouble, no one would survive; but for the sake of the elect, those whom he has chosen, he has limited it. 

21 “At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or, ‘See, there he is!’ — don’t believe him! 22 There will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing signs and wonders for the purpose, if possible, of misleading the chosen. 23 But you, watch out! I have told you everything in advance! 24 In those days, after that trouble,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining, 
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken. 

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with tremendous power and glory.  27 He will send out his angels and gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. 
CJB

Luke 21:8-28
8 He answered, “Watch out! Don’t be fooled! For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time has come!’ Don’t go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and revolutions, don’t panic. For these things must happen first, but the end will not follow immediately.” 

10 Then he told them, “Peoples will fight each other, nations will fight each other, 11 there will be great earthquakes, there will be epidemics and famines in various places, and there will be fearful sights and great signs from Heaven. 12 But before all this, they will arrest you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons; and you will be brought before kings and governors. This will all be on account of me, 13 but it will prove an opportunity for you to bear witness. 14 So make up your minds not to worry, rehearsing your defense beforehand; 15 for I myself will give you an eloquence and a wisdom that no adversary will be able to resist or refute. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends; some of you they will have put to death; 17 and everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will be lost. 19 By standing firm you will save your lives. 

20 “However, when you see Yerushalayim surrounded by armies, then you are to understand that she is about to be destroyed. 21 Those in Y’hudah must escape to the hills, those inside the city must get out, and those in the country must not enter it. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, when everything that has been written in the Tanakh will come true. 23 What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress in the Land and judgment on the people. 24 Some will fall by the edge of the sword, others will be carried into all the countries of the Goyim, and Yerushalayim will be trampled down by the Goyim until the age of the Goyim has run its course. 

25 “There will appear signs in the sun, moon and stars; and on earth, nations will be in anxiety and bewilderment at the sound and surge of the sea, 26 as people faint with fear at the prospect of what is overtaking the world; for the powers in heaven will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with tremendous power and glory.  28 When these things start to happen, stand up and hold your heads high; because you are about to be liberated!” 
CJB

You've made an assumption from the beginning that this "Olivet Discourse" was NOT restricted to the first century within the disciples' lifetimes. I make the same assumption; however, I'm willing to accept that much of what the Olivet Discourse was about WAS fulfilled in the first century. Most Christians today who are premillennial do NOT accept that. IF the Olivet Discourse covered that time period at all, it VERY BRIEFLY covered that period!

To take such a stance, modern, premillennial Christians must ignore the details in favor of Yeshua` conveying, in a common understanding of the time period, the DISTILLED INTENT of His speech. My question is this: Are the details He used important or not? If so, then why not LISTEN TO HIM?! If not, then is ANY portion of the Olivet Discourse important?! I mean, c'mon! Who decides what portion is important and what portion is not?

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

First of all, if Jesus' audience is Jewish, and He only preached in Israel, then all other teachings of His to His Disciples don't apply to us as well?  Or are not the Disciples the very nexus of the Church?
Secondly, I don't see how false prophets relegates the Olivet Discourse to the past.
Third, the placement of the Discourse also does not relegate the Olivet Discourse to the past.
Fourth, if this were about the First Jewish Revolt (and not even extending to the Second Jewish Revolt where they are scattered from Israel) - why isn't the first question some of the Disciples pose answered?  Jesus ONLY answers the second question - when He will come again.  He did not Return in the first century.
Finally, while that was peculiar to the first century, and it still is a feature in many homes in that arid region - as a euphemism it becomes little more than an idiom of speech which can be applied to any situation where people first notice calamity coming and take urgent action to flee.

But what interest me most is how you are going to assign applicability to the abomination(s) desolation.

Furthermore, how is it that the Great Tribulation comes afterward - AND - is the most terrible time ever?

Was the First Jewish Revolt, a conflict so small it didn't rate as a war, nor did it interrupt the Pax Romana, or Roman peace which it had established by its iron rule - indeed the worst time ever?

Did the slaughter of a mid-sized city outdo the carnage of the Holocaust?

Did the killing of the Romans in putting down a limited rebellion kill more people than Attila the Hun?

If the Olivet Discourse concerns only the Jews - how is it then possible that the Great Tribulaiton of those days in the first century will never be exceeded? 

Shabbat shalom, Marcus.

Okay, let's answer these questions one at a time:

If Jesus' audience is Jewish, and He only preached in Israel, then all other teachings of His to His Disciples don't apply to us as well? Directly so, no. His teachings were about David's Kingdom, the "Kingdom of God" (for David recognized that his kingdom was really that which belonged to God).

Or are not the Disciples the very nexus of the Church? First of all, I cannot abide you calling any organization today, the "Church." There's NO SUCH THING (as Moody's Janet Parshall puts it), "the church, capital C, universal!" Roman Catholics would like one to believe that position, but it is unscriptural. An ekkleesia is simply a "called out (group)" of people. We have MANY verses in the NT that use the word in the plural since each town to which Paul went would have such a gathering (e.g. Acts 15:41; 16:5; Rom. 16:4, 16; etc.). An ekkleesia kurioskon (kurioskon is the Greek word from which we get our word "church") is a "called-out (group) of-the-Lord." However, there's nothing inheritantly special about the word "ekkleesia." It was the word used for the representative mob in Ephesus (Acts 19:32, 39, and 41) that cried out, "Great is the goddess Diana of the Ephesians," and it was the word used for the congregation of the children of Israel at Mount Sinai (Acts 7:38).

In fact, going back to Romans 9 through 11, it is clear to me that the "ekkleesia" of God is indeed the "Olive Tree," the children of Israel who still believed in God and who knew that Yeshua` was indeed the Messiah of God, God's Anointed One chosen to be King, and as such the future King of Israel. Indeed, the Gentiles (goyim) in Roma to whom Paul was speaking were said to be "grafted into the Olive Tree AGAINST NATURE," and "grafted in among" the "NATURAL BRANCHES," not just the ones "broken off!"

Secondly, I don't see how false prophets relegate the Olivet Discourse to the past. You don't? How many prophets of God have come to the Jewish people to deceive them about a "messiah" in recent years? Furthermore, the children of Israel (without knowing who the Messiah is) have become JADED in their view of the coming of the Messiah. Either they no longer accept this prophecy as a literal promise of a future King (taking the prophecies as an analogy or a figure of speech), or they have such a belief in a FUTURE King that they wouldn't recognize Him if He were to stand right in front of them today!

Third, the placement of the Discourse also does not relegate the Olivet Discourse to the past. I can only assume that you mean "upon the Mount of Olives" when you say "the placement of the Discourse." While the placement upon Har haZeitiym does not FORCE the fulfillment to be in the past, it makes it far easier for its fulfillment to be in the past. For instance, so placed, this Discourse and its answers to the questions His students posed, are a PRIVATE MATTER, not open to all the Jews in Jerusalem.

Fourth, if this were about the First Jewish Revolt (and not even extending to the Second Jewish Revolt where they are scattered from Israel) - why isn't the first question some of the Disciples pose answered?  Jesus ONLY answers the second question - when He will come again.  He did not Return in the first century. No, He DID answer the first question, too! The questions were:

Matthew 24:3
3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the talmidim came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that you are coming, and that the ‘olam hazeh is ending?”
CJB

Mark 13:3-4
3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the Temple, Kefa, Ya‘akov, Yochanan and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what sign will show when all these things are about to be accomplished?”
CJB

Luke 21:7
7 They asked him, “Rabbi, if this is so, when will these events take place? And what sign will show that they are about to happen?”
CJB

Yeshua` told them that there would be some specific, catastrophic events happening right there in Jerusalem very soon! And, who said that this persecution and pressure that were coming did not extend to the Second Jewish Revolt and beyond?! He extended it from the time that they would have to flee Jerusalem to the time when the Son of Man returns! Thus, it wasn't just in the first century any more than it will be just in the final 3.5 years before our Lord returns! Thus, the whole, past 2,000 years (more or less) ARE the period of "pressure" (Greek: thlipsis, translated as "tribulation").

Finally, while that was peculiar to the first century, and it still is a feature in many homes in that arid region - as a euphemism it becomes little more than an idiom of speech which can be applied to any situation where people first notice calamity coming and take urgent action to flee. As I just got done answering WilliamL, an "idiom of speech" would tend to ignore the literal interpretation of these verses. Who decides what is to be accepted as fact and what is to be interpreted as an "idiom of speech?" Where do you draw the line? Either He meant what He said, or He should not be taken seriously about any of it! I'm going to opt for the former.

I'm going to lump all of the last questions together:
 

Furthermore, how is it that the Great Tribulation comes afterward - AND - is the most terrible time ever?

Was the First Jewish Revolt, a conflict so small it didn't rate as a war, nor did it interrupt the Pax Romana, or Roman peace which it had established by its iron rule - indeed the worst time ever?

Did the slaughter of a mid-sized city outdo the carnage of the Holocaust?

Did the killing of the Romans in putting down a limited rebellion kill more people than Attila the Hun?

If the Olivet Discourse concerns only the Jews - how is it then possible that the Great Tribulaiton of those days in the first century will never be exceeded?

This is easily answered when you understand that this "great tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis megalee) (1) should NOT be treated as a label for some limited period of time, and (2) covered ALL the atrocities against the Jews from the 1st century to the 21st century! Therefore, the "thlipsis megalee" contained the First Jewish Revolt, the Second Jewish Revolt, all the persecutions from Roma, all of the dislocations as the Jews who were chased from town to town, from country to country in Asia and Europe, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms, the attempted genocide during the Holocaust, and the terrorism of recent days as Israel's neighbors attempt to "drive them into the sea." With TWO MILLENNIA of atrocities, it IS the "most terrible time ever!" So, consequentially, YES; it will kill more people than Attila the Hun or just the carnage of the Holocaust by itself! Can such a "great tribulation" from the 1st century to the 21st century EVER be exceeded?

And, to nip the objection in the bud, it wasn't the whole time period that would be limited; it was the number of "THOSE DAYS" of persecution WITHIN the whole time period that would be limited when Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Finally, it's JUST as wrong to give the term "abomination of desolation" the status of a LABEL as it is to give such a status to the "great tribulation." These words should NOT be relegated to some unique meaning assumed by the eschatologist. They MEAN something and should be interpreted as a simple statement rather than the TITLE of some unique event! It is "to bdelugma tees oreemooseoos," stemming from the two Greek terms:

NT:946 bdelugma (bdel'-oog-mah); from NT:948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
KJV - abomination.

NT:2050 ereemoosis (er-ay'-mo-sis); from NT:2049; despoliation:
KJV - desolation.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Using a dictionary to bring these two terms up to today's English, a "detestation" is a LOATHING, an ABHORRENCE, a HATRED! A "despoliation" is a PLUNDERING!

Thus, the phrase should be interpreted as "the loathing of the plundering!" And, what did they do in Jerusalem in the first century? Well, after setting the Temple on fire, which melted the gold of the Temple where it ran between the stones of the building, once it cooled, the soldiers tore the building apart to get at the gold! That's why there wasn't so much as "one stone left upon another!"

You're right, though, the Messiah Yeshua` did NOT return in the first century. He hasn't returned in all the centuries up to the current years of the 21st century! However, He SHALL return in His Father's timing.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 7/30/2016 at 0:15 PM, Retrobyter said:

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

His teachings were about David's Kingdom, the "Kingdom of God" (for David recognized that his kingdom was really that which belonged to God).

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

If Jesus' audience is Jewish, and He only preached in Israel, then all other teachings of His to His Disciples don't apply to us as well? Directly so, no. His teachings were about David's Kingdom, the "Kingdom of God" (for David recognized that his kingdom was really that which belonged to God).

The Olivet Discourse is not about David's Kingdom.  

All of Jesus' teaching to the Jews apply to the CHURCH.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Or are not the Disciples the very nexus of the Church? First of all, I cannot abide you calling any organization today, the "Church." There's NO SUCH THING

The Church as I use the term refers to all those who believe in Christ Jesus and are saved by faith.  They are the ELECT.  

Jesus' audience is the nexus of the Church and it applies to us as well.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Secondly, I don't see how false prophets relegate the Olivet Discourse to the past. You don't? How many prophets of God have come to the Jewish people to deceive them about a "messiah" in recent years?

Oh, I don't know... what about the LDS?  They consider themselves to be prophets!
Or what about Heaven's Gate?
Scientology?
Seventh Day Adventists?
There are plenty of prophets today if you look around.

Jesus is speaking to the Church.  Israel has not had any prophets since the 5th century B.C. or whenever...

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Third, the placement of the Discourse also does not relegate the Olivet Discourse to the past. I can only assume that you mean "upon the Mount of Olives" when you say "the placement of the Discourse." While the placement upon Har haZeitiym does not FORCE the fulfillment to be in the past, it makes it far easier for its fulfillment to be in the past. For instance, so placed, this Discourse and its answers to the questions His students posed, are a PRIVATE MATTER, not open to all the Jews in Jerusalem.

First of all, you were the one who brought the placement upon the Mount of Olives as a critical point, and it does not indicate a Preterist fulfillment.

Nor is the gathering of the Elect a PRIVATE MATTER when every eye will see Him come.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Fourth, if this were about the First Jewish Revolt (and not even extending to the Second Jewish Revolt where they are scattered from Israel) - why isn't the first question some of the Disciples pose answered?  Jesus ONLY answers the second question - when He will come again.  He did not Return in the first century. No, He DID answer the first question, too! The questions were:

No he didn't.  That is your assumption that the abomination somehow refers to the First Jewish Revolt.

He didn't talk about the Temple being destroyed.

He talked about His Return.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Finally, while that was peculiar to the first century, and it still is a feature in many homes in that arid region - as a euphemism it becomes little more than an idiom of speech which can be applied to any situation where people first notice calamity coming and take urgent action to flee. As I just got done answering WilliamL, an "idiom of speech" would tend to ignore the literal interpretation of these verses. Who decides what is to be accepted as fact and what is to be interpreted as an "idiom of speech?" Where do you draw the line? Either He meant what He said, or He should not be taken seriously about any of it! I'm going to opt for the former.

Not proved.

The point was not about jumping from roof to roof.

The point of His warning was not to go back and get unnecessary stuff when your life is at stake.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, how is it that the Great Tribulation comes afterward - AND - is the most terrible time ever?

This is easily answered when you understand that this "great tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis megalee) (1) should NOT be treated as a label for some limited period of time, and (2) covered ALL the atrocities against the Jews from the 1st century to the 21st century!

Oh!  Good job changing what Jesus said around when it suits you!

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

That takes us right up to the 21st century Roy.

 Mt 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

And that tribulation is CUT SHORT.  2000 years?  Not hardly.  

And it's for the Elect - not the Jews.