Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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First, I think we should discuss the first hurdle I cannot get over.

Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

My comment:  The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews.

Your response:  Yes, she is.  See Above.

 

 

 

She is or she wouldn't have had to have fled in the first place. And as I have shown you by a more detailed account....

 

(Romans 9:27) "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

Can you please point to another event in History that shows these events of Zechariah?

 

In many cases, dealing with The Book of Revelation, a more detailed account of the situation can be found in other places.

 

 

I'll start with the most obvious question, are you saying the remnant are messianic Jews?

 

 

They will be.  The "great tribulation" will force them to fish or cut bait.

 

Again... (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." More accurately translated "Earnestly"

 

 

Since you didn't address it directly, I am assuming you don't disagree that husband is the correct translation for the Hosea passage previously discussed.

 

 

It could be....but as I said, Christ's Church/Bride/Wife is not Israel.

 

 

Your comment:  OT Saints are not apart of "The Church" they are under a Different Covenant.  You can't have this...

 

Paul covers this subject matter thoroughly in Romans, and your claims are in opposition to what was written, here are a few highlights.

 

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

 

How does this Refute my Statement that the OT Saints are not apart of "The Church".  Answer: it doesn't, in any way whatsoever.

 

 

Paul also goes on to discuss the 'seal' of righteousness that Abraham had by faith.

 

 

Faith in what?

 

 

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

 

How does this show that Abraham is Apart of "The Church"?

 

And fyi, Abraham wasn't Jewish.  The Nation was born in Exodus.

 

 

It is important to note in the above passage from Romans 2 that Paul gives an order to things, the Jew comes first in both cases, whether evil or good.  Can you explain how your theory reverses this order and has the Gentile who does good receiving glory, honor, and peace before the Jew?   

 

 

This is a Strawman (Fallacy).  Who said anything about any order?

 

"My theory" doesn't speak to any "Order" or "Importance" classification only a distinction.  Like this one....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

Very distinctive.  And another of those "Extremely" important "Untils/Til's".

 

 

This is another major contradiction with any theory that places the resurrection prior to where John places the first resurrection in Rev. 20.

 

 

Really, How so?

 

Please list the RESURRECTIONS in Scripture.....?

 

 

Paul also goes on to discuss the 'seal' of righteousness that Abraham had by faith.  The seal is the Holy Spirit, which can only be obtained by accepting salvation, Paul also clarifies this in the book of Romans.

 

 

Factually Incorrect.  How can you accept Salvation before Salvation i.e., Before Christ's Sacrifice??  And the Holy Spirit was given and taken away throughout the OT.

 

 

It baffles me that anyone would attempt to exclude men such as Abraham or David or the prophets, or any Old Testament saint from the rewards God promised His children. 

 

 

This is another Strawman (Fallacy).  Where did I ever say or even imply they are excluded from GOD'S Promises?  Answer, Nowhere.  GOD will fulfill every last promise HE made to Israel.  HE will also fulfill every last promise HE made to "The Church".

 

I get the impression you are conflating my position with the "Replacement Theology" camp.  Big Mistake! I'm the furthest from that position.  "The Church" and Israel are just separate in Scripture....None more "Important" than the Other.  They have different Origins "Birth Dates" and Different Paths to their Destinies.

 

 

So to accept your position, I would have to believe that the order Paul gave is incorrect, meaning God gave me bad information.  Unless of course you have some scripture that explains the contradiction.  Then I would still have to swallow that God lied, and does indeed intend to show favoritism to the church.

 

 

Once you drop the Strawman (Fallacy)-------"Order" and "Importance", then everything lines up.

 

 

Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

 

"as a" is a Simile (A Figure of Speech).....not to be taken Literally.

 

Christ doesn't Marry New Jerusalem.  Nobody in the History of the Universe has ever married an Inanimate Object. (Caveat: Nobody of "Sound Mind"...)

 

 

A bride prepared for her husband, I'm not sure how you have a wedding supper before the bride is ready.

 

 

I've already showed you 3 Times Now...this occurs in Revelation 19 before Christ Returns.  What is particularly confusing about those passages?

 

 

It appears that you read the book of Revelation as though it were written chronologically.  I do not.

 

 

What is your warrant/Mandate for "NOT" following it in Chronological Order? The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are in Order.  Do you have Chapter 21 Occurring before Chapter 4?

 

 

"Some deal with multiple events, some deal with specific events, some deal with events in more detail."---

 

So?  This doesn't Preclude the Contiguous Nature of the Book. 

 

 

"There are many proofs for this, one would be the topic we are discussing, the marriage supper.  It is spoken of in chapter 19, and it is also spoken of in chapter 21."----

 

I've refuted this twice, the last one above.

 

 

"how about the mountains falling down or the islands being removed?  Once an island has been removed from the face of the earth, can you remove it again?"----

 

Don't have the first clue what you are making a reference to and how this "Proves" your point.

 

 

"Many of these events overlap and intersect each other, they are happening simultaneously."----

 

Well "Overlap" and "Intersect" doesn't Preclude the Contiguous Nature.

 

 

It's my contention that the OT Saints are NOT Resurrected until the Great White Throne, As Evidence By:

 

(Daniel 12:1-2) "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  {2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

 

 

1. it says "thy people".  Who are Daniel's people?....the Jews.

 

2. The Daniel Passage is clearly referring to the OT Saints, of which... Daniel is one.

 

3.  And this is quite interesting...."at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."     When does this event occur? When is a Book Opened?  The ONLY Place.....

 

(Revelation 20:11-12) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

Daniel 12:1 is clearly saying that the OT Saints won't be Resurrected Until the Great White Throne   .  Makes sense, to be judged on their works....why?  Well the OT Saints are not apart of the New Testament Dispensation.... they are under a different Covenant.

 

Are Born Again Christians (The Church) judged by their works?  Ahhhh, NOPE.  Praise The LORD!!!!  Because....and I'm speaking personally, if that were the case, you might as well stick a fork in my now...I'm TOAST!

 

regards

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I really don`t want to interrupt you good conversation with wingnut, which is very interesting. However I thought I might get you to think upon that parable, as you said, & how the Lord is talking to Israel. We both know that the Body of Christ was yet to be revealed. Thus Christ was talking to Israel concerning their future, their inheritance that was promised.

 

As regards the other point. If you believe the Body of Christ is the bride, then when are we Kings & priests? Bit of a mixture there Enoch.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

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I really don`t want to interrupt you good conversation with wingnut, which is very interesting.

 

 

No problem, you're not interrupting...Post On! 

 

 

However I thought I might get you to think upon that parable, as you said, & how the Lord is talking to Israel.

 

 

I didn't say that, I said it was a Parable and a "Figure of Speech"...Not to be taken Literally.  It's used to portray/illustrate a spiritual or moral lesson.

 

 

1.  If you believe the Body of Christ is the bride,   2.  then when are we Kings & priests? Bit of a mixture there Enoch. 

 

 

1.  I don't believe, I Know "The Church" <------Born Again Christians are "depicted" as the Bride/Wife.  It says so plainly right here...

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." 

 

 

2. Well Probably the same reason that Nebuchadnezzar's Statue depicts the Individual Kingdoms as Metals and Daniel 7 Depicts the same Kingdoms as animals.  They are Symbolic or a Representation; Ergo...not to be taken Literally.

 

However, in this Specific Case....it appears the Wife/Bride is Symbolic (We are all not Female, quite obviously) but Kings and Priests are a Literal Reference:

 

(Revelation 1:6) "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

(Revelation 5:10) "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

This is after the Rapture post Spiritual Bodies....Don't think we are Male and Female @ that point.  Can't confirm or refute that but it lines up.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You said -
 

 

`1. I don't believe, I Know "The Church" <------Born Again Christians are "depicted" as the Bride/Wife. It says so plainly right here...

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Here we see a man to be joined to his wife - one flesh / mystery - Christ & the ekkelsia - which is His Body. Christ the Head & His Body - one.

 

Oh & BTW what other scriptures do you have for this doctrine? I know you realise that we don`t build doctrine on one or two scriptures, do we? So what support do you have for your position? Can you support this statement you have made?

 

Marilyn.

 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

And again you said -

 

 

 

(Revelation 5:10) "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

Now we know that `epi,` means `over or on,` depending on the other scriptures pertaining to this topic. So what other scriptures do you have that support your thoughts that we, the Body of Christ,` will be on the earth, ruling & reigning. What supporting evidence do you have?

 

 

Marilyn.

 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You said -

 

 

`1. I don't believe, I Know "The Church" <------Born Again Christians are "depicted" as the Bride/Wife. It says so plainly right here...

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Here we see a man to be joined to his wife - one flesh / mystery - Christ & the ekkelsia - which is His Body. Christ the Head & His Body - one.

 

Oh & BTW what other scriptures do you have for this doctrine? I know you realise that we don`t build doctrine on one or two scriptures, do we? So what support do you have for your position? Can you support this statement you have made?

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

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As I've shown you "countless" Times in the past (They haven't changed)....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

This is "Slam Dunk" Territory.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

And again you said -

 

 

(Revelation 5:10) "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

Now we know that `epi,` means `over or on,` depending on the other scriptures pertaining to this topic. So what other scriptures do you have that support your thoughts that we, the Body of Christ,` will be on the earth, ruling & reigning. What supporting evidence do you have?

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

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Revelation 5:10, says "On"/"Upon".  As I've shown you in a previous rebuttal when you "postulated" that "epi" means just...... "Over". 

 

1909   //  epi  //  epi   //  ep-ee'  // 

a root; prep

AV - on 196, in 120, upon 159, unto 41, to 41, misc 339; 896

 

1) upon, on, at, by, before

2) of position, on, at, by, over, against

3) to, over, on, at, across, against

 

 

(Revelation 20:6) "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

 

Where is Christ "Reigning" from in the Millennium? ..... "On" The Earth. 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You brought up this scripture -

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Here we see that the Apostle Paul is talking to his disciples & wanting to present them pure to the Lord. It is not about Paul presenting the Body of Christ or other believers to the Lord. For it is the Lord Himself who makes us pure & presents us to Himself.

 

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, & to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,...` (Jude 24)

`& you, who once were alienated & enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He (Christ) has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy & blameless, & irreproachable in His sight...` (Col. 1: 21 & 22)

`...that He (Christ) might present it to Himself a glorious church,....` (Eph. 5: 27)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

You brought up this scripture -

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Here we see that the Apostle Paul is talking to his disciples & wanting to present them pure to the Lord. It is not about Paul presenting the Body of Christ or other believers to the Lord. For it is the Lord Himself who makes us pure & presents us to Himself.

 

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, & to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,...` (Jude 24)

`& you, who once were alienated & enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He (Christ) has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy & blameless, & irreproachable in His sight...` (Col. 1: 21 & 22)

`...that He (Christ) might present it to Himself a glorious church,....` (Eph. 5: 27)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

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You brought up this scripture -

 

 

Yes, I surely did.

 

 

Here we see that the Apostle Paul is talking to his disciples & wanting to present them pure to the Lord

 

 

Are Paul's Disciples Born Again Christians <------- "The Church"?  If Yes, The Defense Rests.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

So Paul is going to present you? And what about the Lord saying He was going to do it?

 

Marilyn.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

So Paul is going to present you? And what about the Lord saying He was going to do it?

 

Marilyn.

 

 

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So Paul is going to present you?

 

 

I don't think so...can neither confirm nor refute; If I were to guess, I would say no.

 

 

And what about the Lord saying He was going to do it?

 

 

Why would the LORD present me to Himself?

 

 

You keep Quibbling (Fallacy) over nothingness.

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Any position other than "The Church" <----- Born Again Christians, as the Bride/Wife of Christ is in a perpetual/everlasting "Dirt Nap" Status.