It is not in the Bible ?

[Guest Robert]

On 8/18/2016 at 6:22 PM, Hoddie said:

Do you have anything to back up this claim, or is this just your personal opinion?

 

Peace

 

 

The fact that in Luke 1:47, she stated " And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." Mary admits here that God is her Savior; were she born without sin, she would not have said that. And Mary was committed to doing the Lord's will, as she states in Luke 1:38:

" And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. " (emphasis mine)

There is no way that Mary would ever go along with anyone worshiping her; that would have been tantamount to blasphemy for the woman who knew she was a sinner, and considered herself the Lord's servant.

[coheir]

46 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Who's trying to defend the worshipping of Mary? Certainly not I or any Catholic I know. Maybe you can show me some official Catholic Doctrine that states we (Catholics) are to worship Mary, maybe like from the Catechism of the Catholic Church or from the Vatican.

I read in one of your earlier post that the worship of Mary is done by following tradition not in the Catholic bible.

[Hoddie]

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Ezra said:

The events are certainly important, but they give no special importance to Mary.  As a matter of fact, when one told Jesus that His mother and brethren wished to speak with Him, He asked "Who is my mother, and brothers, and sisters?" and pointing to His disciples He said that the ones who do His will are His mother, and brother, and sister (Matthew 12:46-50).  Right there we see that the Lord Jesus Christ was making sure that Christians DO NOT venerate Mary.

With all due respect Ezra, but I disagree with your personal interpretation of these passages. Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

No where do I see where Jesus says not to honor His mother. Do you think that Jesus would go against the comandment to honor your mother and father?

No one in the history has been more obedient to God than Mary. As a 15 year old girl she faithfully said "Here I am Lord, the servant of the Lord, let it be with me according to your will" (Lk 1:38) not knowing how she would ever be believed and how she would escape the Jewish law of stoning an adulteress. She was engaged to Joseph, the love of her life. Yet she risked losing him, and almost did, in order to say "yes" to having Jesus. (Matt. 1:19) She was carrying the Saviour, so if she would have been stoned to death Jesus would have died too. Then she would not get eternal life and neither would any of us. Her "yes" was BIG. Mary put Jesus ahead of Joseph and even her own life. This was before Jesus was even conceived in the flesh. How much more would she put Jesus ahead of herself now that He has risen.

Stretching out his hand over his disciples, the Lord Christ declared: Here are my mother and my brothers; anyone who does the will of my Father who sent me is my brother and sister and my mother. I would urge you to ponder these words Ezra. Did the Virgin Mary, who believed by faith and conceived by faith, who was the chosen one from whom our Saviour was born among men, who was created by Christ before Christ was created in her – did she not do the will of the Father? Indeed the blessed Mary certainly did the Father’s will, and so it was for her a greater thing to have been Christ’s disciple than to have been his mother, and she was more blessed in her discipleship than in her motherhood. Hers was the happiness of first bearing in her womb him whom she would obey as her master. And you beleive that Mary is of no "special importance?" I beg to differ, as does Billy Graham in his Dec. 2006 radio broadcast on CHRI Radio: "Even when Jesus was dying on the cross He was thinking about his mother!"

[Hoddie]

27 minutes ago, coheir said:

I read in one of your earlier post that the worship of Mary is done by following tradition not in the Catholic bible.

With all due respect coheir, nowhere did you read where I said Catholics worship Mary, following Tradition or otherwise. Every Catholic I know worships God and God only!  Could you please quote me the post in question?

 

Peace

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Hoddie said:

With all due respect Ezra, but I disagree with your personal interpretation of these passages. Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

I don't even have to *interpret* that passage.  It is clear from the context that the man who mentioned mother, and brothers, and sisters expected Christ to give familial consideration to them (as a natural man would). Instead Jesus rebuked him indirectly, while showing the world that Mary was NOT to be given any special consideration or veneration in the teachings of Christ and His apostles.  His words are so clear, that they need no interpretation.

Of course, that puts a serious dent into Mariolatry. Let's face it. For the average Catholic Mary is more important than Christ. Thus we have all those hymns and prayers to Mary, not to mention the statues (idols), statuettes, icons, and churches dedicated to Mary. God sees this as idolatry, regardless of all the fine distinctions between latria , dulia , hyperdulia etc.

[Hoddie]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

I don't even have to *interpret* that passage.  It is clear from the context that the man who mentioned mother, and brothers, and sisters expected Christ to give familial consideration to them (as a natural man would). Instead Jesus rebuked him indirectly, while showing the world that Mary was NOT to be given any special consideration or veneration in the teachings of Christ and His apostles.  His words are so clear, that they need no interpretation.

You say you don't need to "interpret" that passage and then go ahead and give your "opinion" on what Jesus was doing/saying? So again I ask Ezra, do you consider your "opinion" (interpretation) infallible? Do you think Jesus would break one of His ten comandments and dishonor His own mother?

Let's face it. For the average Catholic Mary is more important than Christ. Thus we have all those hymns and prayers to Mary, not to mention the statues (idols), statuettes, icons, and churches dedicated to Mary. God sees this as idolatry, regardless of all the fine distinctions between latria , dulia , hyperdulia etc.

Really? I've been around (average) Catholics my entire life, including hundreds that have came home by crossing the Tiber River from Protestantism to Catholicism, and not one of them has elevated Mary above God. A river cannot be higher than it's source, and the same goes for The Blessed Virgin Mary... A creation cannot be greater than it's creator.

As far as statues goes, I'd like to have a nickel for every time I've heard Catholics being called idolaters because we have images of Christ and the saints. Unfortunatly, this is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues. I know you and many other non-Catholics announce,"God has forbidden the use of images in worship." Yet if you were to "search the scriptures" (Jn. 5:39), you would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commananded their use in religious contexts! Have you ever had a Nativity Scene in your home during the Christmas season? If so.... how dare you..... Idolatry!!!! You are worshipping idols! Do you see how silly that sounds, of course you're not worshipping those images any more than Catholics are worshipping images of The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints.

We Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them.

　

Peace

[coheir]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:57 PM, Hoddie said:

The fact is, even speaking practically, the Church Fathers, as the earliest recipients of Scripture and Tradition and of all Christian teaching, know how to interpret Scripture and Tradition in light of each other better than anyone else. Catholic teaching, coming both from Scripture and from the Tradition received from the Church Fathers, is in agreement with these Church Fathers: both what they believed, and how they interpreted Scripture

This is the post. It leads me to believe Catholic is  tradition maybe as much as scripture.

[Hoddie]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

Simply denial of what is obvious to non-catholics. I've been around Catholics practically my whole life too and many here are former Catholics also. We can read the Catholic writings dedicated to the glorifying of mary and watch & hear our RC family members give prayers &  worship to mary.

Then maybe you and these former Catholics should have no problem bringing up these Catholic writings declairing Catholics are to worship Mary. . From official Catholic sources that is, like the Catechism of the Catholic Church for starters,or maybe the Holy See, not from one of the many anti-Catholic web sites.

I will be patiently waiting.

 

Peace

[Hoddie]

2 hours ago, coheir said:

This is the post. It leads me to believe Catholic is  tradition maybe as much as scripture.

I see nowhere coheir in the quote of mine you posted where it says any thing about Catholics are to worship Mary, Tradition or otherwise. That is what you claimed, is it not. Let me bring it up.

 

I read in one of your earlier post that the worship of Mary is done by following tradition not in the Catholic bible

 

Peace

[missmuffet]

12 minutes ago, Davida said:

Just what is the "Holy See" and where is the scripture reference?

This is the Holy See:

Question: "What is the Holy See?"

Answer: The term "Holy See" is from the Latin Sancta Sedes, meaning “holy chair.” It is said that the Holy See is the jurisdiction in Rome of the Catholic Church. In other words, it is similar to a government, which is not surprising considering that the Vatican is its own country and has its own money and its own laws. However, there is a difference between the Holy See, which dates back to early Christian times, and Vatican City, which came into existence in 1929 with the signing of the Lateran Treaty between the See and the Italian government. The Holy See is an episcopal designation, while Vatican City is primarily a political and diplomatic one.

The government of the Holy See includes tribunals, congregations, pontifical counsels and numerous other bureaucratic entities. Of course the pope is the head of the See, as he is considered the head of the Catholic Church. The secretariat of state is the second in command of the See and oversees the 175 diplomatic worldwide relationships and offices. The See is a member of numerous international organizations, including the United Nations.

From a biblical standpoint, the very existence of a Holy See is problematic on at least two points. First, the concept of a “holy chair” in which resides the head of the church is unscriptural. The true church is never to consider one man as its head, no matter his title. The exalted Head of the true Body of Christ is Jesus Christ, the living Head of the living church. How can the living church be headed by a mortal man who dies? Second, the Bible nowhere gives credence to the idea of the church forming its own city-state or its own government. The church as a political or diplomatic kingdom is unknown in Scripture. In fact, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom is not of this world (John 8:23; 18:36). The Bible never condones or encourages the establishment of earthly kingdoms or diplomatic entities because these things, by their very nature, focus attention on the world, which is passing away (1 Corinthians 7:31; 1 John 2:17). Christians are to be focused on the heavenly kingdom and our only diplomatic efforts are to be spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and warning others of the wrath to come.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-See.html