Purgatory Posits

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (05)

 

This next allusion to a purgatory is best interpreted in its context to avoid getting the wrong idea.

 

● 1Cor 3:5-15 . .What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe. As the Lord has assigned to each his task: I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it.

 

. . . For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be spared, yet so as through fire.

 

The works in question are those pertaining specifically to Christians like Paul and Apollos; viz: God's fellow workers involved in ministerial capacities e.g. apostles, missionaries, evangelists, pastors, deacons, Sunday school teachers, church administrators, home Bible study leaders, et al. Though the average rank and file pew warmer's works will some day be evaluated too; they are not the ones whose works will be evaluated as per 1Cor 3:5-15 because rank and file pew warmers are depicted as: (1) God's field, and (2) His building.

 

It's extremely important to note that only the Christian worker's works are tested with fire; not the worker himself. Compare this to the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 where the dead's works are not tested; but rather, their works are introduced as evidence in the prosecution's case against them. The Christian worker's works aren't evaluated as evidence against them, but as potential credit to justify giving them a performance award.

 

Another extremely important thing to note is that the Christian worker's substandard works are burned up rather than burned off; as if the worker has to spend some time in a purgatory or something like that.

 

The phrase "he himself will be spared, but only as through fire" is rendered by some translators as "like someone escaping through a wall of flames" and/or "as one escaping through the flames". It's a depiction of people who waken inside a burning home with barely enough time to get out; taking nothing with them but whatever they wore to bed. Their home is destroyed, and all their valuables and all their mementoes; but at least the occupants themselves are safe, and suffer no harm from the fire.

 

"each man should be careful how he builds" indicates that God's fellow workers need to keep in mind that what they produce will be thoroughly scrutinized; and projects that don't measure up will be summarily culled; resulting of course in reduced compensation for their service. How sad it would be to see workers like Mother Teresa who, after devoting decades of their lives to a Christian service capacity, only to be stripped of everything and come away with nothing to show for it; not even so much as a Boy Scout merit badge.

 

NOTE: According to 1Cor 4:5 the motives of Christian workers will be evaluated too in order to determine whether they were in it for the Lord, or just in it for themselves.

 

FYI: The koiné Greek words for "purify" and "purge" are nowhere to be found in 1Cor 3:5-15; and a note in the current official Catholic Bible says: The text of 1Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of a purgatory, though it does not envisage this.

 

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Edited August 18, 2016 by WebersHome

[Bob Carabbio]

On 8/14/2016 at 7:53 AM, WebersHome said:

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Allusion (02)

 

POSIT: Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1032 fine print . . If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation?

 

RESPONSE: In the story of Job, it is very important to note that he offered sacrifices for his living children, not the dead ones; and sacrifices were made for his daughters' benefit too, not just the boys.

 

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And the OTHER issue is that Job was acting in a SUPERSTITIOUS MANNER by attempting to offer for people who weren't interested enough to offer for themselves.  There's NO BIBLICAL COMMAND to do any such thing, and NO INDICATION the Job's offering accomplished ANYTHING.

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (06)

 

POSIT:  Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1031 . . . As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

RESPONSE:  Rome's "must believe" and its "understand", are premised upon this:

 

● Matt 12:31-32 . . I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against The Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

Rome construes the Lord's statement to indicate that there are certain kinds of sins for which no forgiveness is available in our own day and age; viz; forgiveness for those particular sins is apparently put on hold till the next day and age.

 

So, what's wrong with that concept? Well, for one, the "age to come" has no reference to one's afterlife; no, it's Christ's millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4-6) -- a 1,000 years era on the earth that precedes the final cosmos. (Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22, 2Pet 3:13, Rev 21:1)

 

Q: What can safely be concluded from Matt 12:31-32?

 

A: All sins forgivable in this day and age, will also be forgivable in Christ's millennial kingdom; and all sins unforgivable in this day and age will also be unforgivable in Christ's millennial kingdom. The age following his millennial kingdom is of course irrelevant because there won't be any sinners in the new cosmos.

 

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Edited August 18, 2016 by WebersHome

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 1:06 AM, WebersHome said:

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There are no passages in the Bible that clearly and without ambiguity, reveal the existence of a purgatory. So in order to justify their belief in the existence of one, posits point to passages that, although they don't actually prove without a shadow of sensible doubt the existence of a purgatory, at least allude to (suggest the possibility of) a purgatory. For example:

 

Allusion (01)

 

POSIT: In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named Judas Maccabeus made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan amulets which he believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas passed the hat among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver drachmas which were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate his dead men's sin so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

 

RESPONSE: Although Judas meant well; what he did was itself a violation of the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for expiating the sins that people take with them over to the afterlife.

 

The very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime to either amend, embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract from the covenant.

 

● Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I enjoin upon you.

 

● Deut 5:32-33 . . Be careful, therefore, to do as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, not turning aside to the right or to the left, but following exactly the way prescribed for you by the LORD, your God,

 

● Deut 26:16 . . This day the LORD, your God, commands you to observe these statutes and decrees. Be careful, then, to observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.

 

Therefore, had the priests at Jerusalem accepted Judas Maccabeus' 2,000 silver drachmas for the purpose he intended, they would have been cursed.

 

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this law!

 

The phrase "cursed be" is grammatically present tense; so that when Yhvh's people beak any one of the laws stipulated in the covenant, they incur an instant curse upon themselves-- no delay, and no waiting period.

 

Bottom line: What Judas Maccabeus did was just as pagan as the amulets that his men were wearing when they died.

 

Q: How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It’s in the Holy Bible!

 

A: Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does not make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible for living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No; absolutely not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

 

Atonements for the dead fall into the category of sins of presumption; viz: unauthorized behavior.

 

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it’s that the Israel of Judas Maccabeus’ day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes rather than Yhvh's eyes; and they were still at it even in Christ's day and age.

 

● Mark 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.

 

● Mark 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

 

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The Catholic bible has the apocrypha, including Maccabees in it but the apocrypha does not belong in the bible. This is the main reason for it too, the fact that the Apocrypha has many teachings that are completely unbiblical including the idea of purgatory.

Catholics do not believe that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin even though the bible is clear that it does.

 1 John 1:7   But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That sin yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Jesus Christ also said on the cross IT IS FINISHED.....meaning that THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (07)

 

POSIT:  Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030 . . All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

RESPONSE: According to Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine, people in purgatory are unable to sin; viz: they have no propensity to sin; ergo: if Leo X is right, then people in purgatory would be familiar with God, and associate with Him on a regular basis.

 

● Matt 5:8 . . Blessed are the pure of heart, for they will see God.

 

Since nobody sins in purgatory, nor indeed can sin, then whatever is Rome talking about when it says imperfectly purified?

 

That has reference, at least in part, to CCC 1031 which says: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.

 

One of the so-called purifying fire's purposes is to remove the contamination caused by sin. That thought is based upon 1John 1:9 which infers that in order to obtain de-contamination for one's sins; they have to be confessed.

 

Well; in the event that some of one's lesser faults slip through a crack, purgatory's fire takes care of those. Unfortunately, purgatory does nothing for so-called mortal sins. When people leave this life with even one unconfessed mortal sin on the books, they go straight to hell.

 

NOTE: I've been told that one's "intention" to confess a mortal sin counts as confession.

 

For some odd reason, Rome has totally missed the purpose of confession as per 1John 1:5-10. It's not for getting one's self cleaned up for heaven. No, far from it. The purpose is fellowship-- translated from the Greek word is koinonia (koy-nohn-ee'-ah) --which means basically: partnership and/or participation and social intercourse.

 

In a nutshell: a profitable association with God in this life depends upon one keeping their sins confessed in a timely manner.

 

● 1John 1:3 . .What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

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Edited August 20, 2016 by WebersHome

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (08)

 

POSIT:  Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

 

RESPONSE:  Rome insists that the Lord's commandment alludes to the necessity of a purgatory. But isn't that reading something into his words instead of listening to what they have to say? Yes, it is.

 

The perfection Christ spoke of wasn't sinless perfection. The Lord's adverb "therefore" directed his audience's attention back to his previous statements regarding cliques, castes, class distinctions, prejudice, partiality, snobbery, favoritism, and bias.

 

● Matt 5:43-48 . .You have heard that it was said: Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

. . . If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

● Rom 2:11 . . There is no favoritism with God.

 

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[WebersHome]

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Allusion (09)

 

POSIT: Heb 12:10 . . For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

 

RESPONSE: When taken in full context, it's easily seen that the discipline described in the passage above pertains to the present rather than later on after people are deceased.

 

● Heb 12:11-13 . . Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Therefore, lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

 

● Heb 12:7-8 . . Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate and not true sons.

 

It only stands to reason then, that a good kid doesn't need disciplining because he's self-disciplined and there's nothing in either his character or his behavior that needs correcting. The reason I pointed that out is because Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine attests that purgatorians are not only sinless but also incapable of sin. So then, since there would be nothing in either their character or their behavior that would need correction; then the discipline aspect of a purgatory is both a non sequitur and an oxymoron.

 

FYI: Overly-sensitive Catholics often view any and all rebuttals of Rome's dogma as "bashing". But countering Rome's errors with scripture is not bashing; no, on the contrary: it's wise.

 

● Acts 17:10-11 . . As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

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Edited August 21, 2016 by WebersHome

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (10)

 

POSIT:  1Pet 3:17-21 . . For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God.

 

. . . Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in The Spirit; by whom he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

 

RESPONSE: Peter's revelation is a pretty useful proof text for Trinitarians because it identifies Christ as the Holy Spirit prior to the Lord's birth. How so? Because in the days of Noah; Yhvh said: My Spirit will not contend with man forever (Gen 6:3). According to Peter, Christ was My Spirit; but he didn't preach in person; rather, Christ preached by inspiring Noah to preach for him.

 

● 2Pet 2:5 . . Noah; a preacher of righteousness

 

The Spirit of Christ not only inspired Noah; but also the other prophets too.

 

● 1Pet 1:10-12 . . Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

 

A common misconception of 1Pet 3:17-21 is that while Jesus' human body reposed in death for three days and nights, his spirit went to an undisclosed afterlife location and preached the Gospel to deceased antediluvians. Well, that won't work because God gave those people 120 years to repent and they never did so He drowned every last one of them; which according to Rome; took them all out of the running because there is no opportunity for repentance on the other side.

 

Catechism of the Catholic Church: paragraph 393 . . There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.

 

The reasonable interpretation of 1Pet 3:17-21 is that Christ, by means of the Holy Spirit, preached to the antediluvians prior to their drowning in the Flood; during the ark's construction; rather than after the Flood when they were all dead; because "now" is the time to listen; not later.

 

● 2Cor 6:1-2 . . Working together, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: "In an acceptable time I heard you, and on the day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is a the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

The souls of 1Pet 3:17-21 are in prison. Well . . . conceptually, Rome's purgatory isn't supposed to be a penal colony. It's more like finishing school than lock-up.

 

The koiné Greek word for "prison" is  phulake (foo-lak-ay') which is an ambiguous word that essentially means to place under guard; which would not be necessary for a purgatorial population since according to Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin. Bottom line is: Leo's purgatorians can be trusted to stay put on their own without a system of confinement to make sure they do.

 

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[WebersHome]

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Allusion (11)

 

POSIT:  1Cor 15:29-30 . . Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are people baptized for them?

 

RESPONSE: Paul didn't say: what will we do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are we baptized for them?

 

No; the people identified as "those people" were not affiliated with the apostles.

 

NOTE: There's no record of Christ teaching vicarious baptisms; no, quite the opposite. Baptism is something you have to do for yourself, plus; it's joined at the hip with indoctrination.

 

● Matt 28:18-20 . . All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

 

In other words: Christian baptism is intended for disciples rather than non disciples. So then, even if vicarious baptisms were legit, they would be restricted to deceased believers.

 

● Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everybody. Whoever believes and is baptized will be spared, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

● John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

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Edited August 25, 2016 by WebersHome

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (12)

 

POSIT: In the scene depicted at Luke 16:19-31, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and is anxious to tell them where he is so they don't join him. But there is no suffering in heaven, nor is there compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived of God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

 

RESPONSE: That's an odd statement considering that no doubt the majority of Rome's followers are counting on purgatory; even Popes want to go there; and actually expect to. In other words; if purgatory is Catholicism's back up, then why was the rich man worried that his family would come there? Shouldn't he have been worried that they might not?

 

The resolution quoted above alleges that the rich man must be in a purgatory because people in hell are unable to feel compassion. While it can be safely said that people destined for hell lack the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) it cannot safely be said that they are totally insensitive. Human nature is capable of a pretty broad range of feelings all by itself sans the grace of God. True, human nature cannot love as God loves, but it can , and it does, love as humans love; and one of human nature's basic instincts is passionate concern for the safety of its own kin.

 

Does anyone reading this have deceased kin? Do you know for a fact where they are at present? Well, I can tell you one thing for a fact; that if your deceased kin are by chance in the wrong place, then they are enduring terrible anguish not being able to communicate that information to you.

 

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Edited August 26, 2016 by WebersHome