Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Revelation 1:7 describes the same event as Matthew 24:30 unless you want to say there are two times Jesus appears to the whole world - the whole way around the world! And remember, the Greeks had already calculated the diameter of the earth!  It was not until the Dark Ages that flat earth Roman Catholic clerics took a small bit of Scripture and made a whole culture live in ignorance.  It would a colossal presumption to insist everyone beforehand was also under this delusion.

John wrote Rev 1:7.  (Jesus is not quoted until verse 8.)  He is introducing the Lord with the greatest moment of joy Christianity could know: the long-awaited Return of the Lord.

Jesus taught that His Return in Matthew 24:30 would also be witnessed by all. This on the Day of the Lord.

The same precursor sign of the Day of the Lord is given with the sixth Seal.  And with that event, as from the detailed parallel account of the Harvest in Revelation 14 comes with 3 Angels, and they are the ones who warn the wicked their time is up.  That is why the wicked mourn.  And Isaiah saw this event as well.

They're all related to the Glorious Return of Christ Jesus, the most momentous event of Christendom.   

[Retrobyter]

On September 6, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

When I said that the Church did not enter the Rapture what I meant was that the Church does not enter the Tribulation.  That was a typo.

Yes, believers have experienced trials since the beginning but they are not sent directly by God.  They come at the hands of an unbelieving world and the result of them is supposed to be a strengthening of our faith and witness.  It is not God testing us.  I will repeat:  There is no need for God to test a believer since He already knows they belong to Him.  No testing is necessary.  If God has to test a believer to see if they really believe or not, He is not omniscient.

God states very clearly, on more than one occasion that a believer is not appointed to wrath.  That means that at the very least, that portion of your theory does not come from God.  it doesn't come from the Bible either, unless you simply don't understand those verses or just don't wish to use them because they undermine this "doctrine."  One of the bedrock reasons Jesus' salvation exists is to deliver the believer from God's wrath.  I clearly said that the Tribulation is God pouring out His wrath on an unbelieving world.  A believer can never be the recipient of that wrath.  The Bible clearly states that.  Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 all tell us of this fact.  Christians will never experience God's wrath.  The only two options are they either 

A.  Will not be there for that wrath, or

B.  They will be divinely protected from that wrath.

Biblically, there is no third option.

The Parousia requires Jesus to return, physically, to the Earth, not simply hover above it in the clouds or in the sky.  The Rapture is not the Second Coming.  They are very clearly, and easily understandable as different events with different reasons for why they occur.  The Rapture is Christ removing His church from the Earth.  The Second Coming is Jesus claim His right as King, and receiving His Kingdom. They are not the same event.  Any person who tries to call the Rapture the Second Coming and then ridicule people who believe in a pre-tribulation and then call the actual Second Coming "the third coming" demonstrate that they do not understand that these are not the same event.  The Rapture is not the Second Coming.

Shalom, Cobalt1959.

Oh, I knew that you just used the wrong word; that's okay, I can understand that. I do it myself on occasion.

The point I'm trying to make is this: IF one assigns a label "Tribulation" to a future 7-year period (also known as the 70th Seven or Week of Daniel), THEN we have not yet entered the "Tribulation." However, IF one allows the "tribulation" to be the condition of the last 2000 years, then we have already entered the "tribulation" a long time ago! This second view is what I believe. It has nothing directly to do with the 70th Seven. Instead, the 70th Seven was SPLIT IN TWO by the Messiah Yeshua` Himself! The first half of the 70th Seven is what many call "the Earthly Ministry of the Lord" during His First Advent, the 3.5 years He spent teaching about the Kingdom. The second half of the 70th Seven will not start until the Messiah returns.

See, using Matthew 24 as a reference, the "tribulation" condition is a condition applied primarily to the Jews (the "chosen seed" or the "elect"). It began in the first century, which explains much of what Yeshua` warned His disciples about in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:9-31
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation/pressure"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Euthetoos de meta teen thlipsin = "But directly after the pressure") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Thus, the disciples began to feel the pressure in the first century, around 64 A.D. And, that pressure would continue until "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." That event hasn't happened, yet! Thus, it's been going on for nearly 2000 years! The point that Yeshua` was making when He said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened," was that the actual days of pressure within this time period would not be so overwhelming as to destroy the children of Israel permanently. Instead, there would be times of reprieve! Times to recuperate! Times to grieve their losses, and times to consider their sins against God and repent.

On the other hand, we all need to recognize that God does INDEED allow trials in the believers' lives. That's NOT "to test a believer to see if they really believe or not"; it's "the trying of your faith worketh patience!"

James 1:2-12
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations (testings);
3 Knowing this, that the trying (testing) of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect (mature) and entire (complete), wanting (lacking) nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation (testing): for when he is tried (tested), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
KJV

2 Peter 1:5-8
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance (self-control); and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

It's the GROWTH process in a believer's life! That's why many believers around the world suffer persecutions! It's not because the believers have done anything wrong; it's because they've done well and God is pushing them to make them the best they can be, like a trainer does an athlete! He's cutting off the rough spots and polishing the smooth surfaces to make them flawless gems, like a jeweler does a diamond in the rough!

No, once justified by God, always justified by God (aka "OSAS"). Another way to put it is, "once a son, always a son." Even when the prodigal son was away from his father, he never ceased being the father's son! BUT, a son must be educated or he will never fulfill the hopes and wishes of his father for him. A person can learn from the experiences of others, like his teachers, but sometimes a person has to learn the lessons through his own experiences - the "school of hard knocks!" It's better to learn from others' experiences.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Revelation 1:7 describes the same event as Matthew 24:30 unless you want to say there are two times Jesus appears to the whole world - the whole way around the world! And remember, the Greeks had already calculated the diameter of the earth!  It was not until the Dark Ages that flat earth Roman Catholic clerics took a small bit of Scripture and made a whole culture live in ignorance.  It would a colossal presumption to insist everyone beforehand was also under this delusion.

John wrote Rev 1:7.  (Jesus is not quoted until verse 8.)  He is introducing the Lord with the greatest moment of joy Christianity could know: the long-awaited Return of the Lord.

Jesus taught that His Return in Matthew 24:30 would also be witnessed by all. This on the Day of the Lord.

The same precursor sign of the Day of the Lord is given with the sixth Seal.  And with that event, as from the detailed parallel account of the Harvest in Revelation 14 comes with 3 Angels, and they are the ones who warn the wicked their time is up.  That is why the wicked mourn.  And Isaiah saw this event as well.

They're all related to the Glorious Return of Christ Jesus, the most momentous event of Christendom.   

Shalom, Marcus.

Yes, you're right about the Greek mathematicians calculating the circumference and the diameter of the earth and about the Dark Ages. I stand corrected. (And, it was FUN going back through their calculations! It was much like I do with the New Jerusalem calculations! Thank you for that reminder!) My question would be, however, "How much of that information was public knowledge?" The philosophers and mathematicians knew this information, but what about the farmers and the slaves and even the soldiers? Even some of the philosophers did not accept this information opting rather for a belief in a rectangular earth.

And, you are right as well about John (Yochanan) doing the talking in Revelation 1:7. However, given that Yochanan was one of the twelve who were with Yeshua` when He gave His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13; and Luke 21, which came first the chicken or the egg? Perhaps we can say that Yochanan was quoting Yeshua` who quoted Z'kharyahu? Hmmmmm... Still, thanks for that catch. Guess I'm a little off today. Still, Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 quote from the same location, Zechariah 12:12, while Revelation 6:15-17 does not.

The only other time that the word for "lament" or "mourn" is used is in Revelation 18 over Babylon the Great!

[Guest Robert]

On 9/16/2016 at 8:23 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Was just noticing this thread Robert, and read your post, noticing in particular the part that I quoted above. I did not read the rest of the thread to see if anyone responded to your question. It looked like no one had so I will make a quick response (even though it sort of goes against my better judgement, since I am not responding to the OP, but to your question.

As one who believes the the Church will participate in the Tribulation (though I think by the time it arrives, I will be the the resurrection that precedes the rapture), let me say this as it might represent the thinking of many who are like minded with me:

You comment: "Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?" . . .  This question has no relationship to, and in fact, misrepresents post-trib belief. For myself (an likely for many others) I believe absolutely, that nothing needs to be added to a lacking salvation. When Jesus said "it is finished", it was. He was the one perfect and wholly adequate sacrifice for sinners. Why you would think we think otherwise, is beyond me.

I would guess that there are perhaps thousands of explanations of the post-trib rapture on this forums, and I would bet that not once, has any post-tribber here said that the cross was not enough. I also imagine that that idea could not be found in any book written by a post-tribber, nor has it been said, by any post-tribber of the previous 20 centuries that I am aware of. If am wrong on this point, please point that out. Without such evidence, I would say that you have more or less a Red Herring here, albeit not one created intentionally. It is just a mis-statement, I believe, to suggest the post-tribbers think Jesus sacrifice was not enough. We contribute nothing to salvation, it is entirely the work of God that saves. 

Re you comment: "If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?"

Well, this I am afraid, is irrelevant, because right off the back, as I have pointed out, posties do not believe that going through the tribulation contributes to our salvation. There is also a logical fallacy here, because even if we did believe that, it does not necessarily follow, that all believers would have to suffer equally to enter God's rest. 

The scriptures do not state anything like the idea that all must suffer equally to enter into the kingdom of God.  Since the Bible does not state such a thing, I doubt most posties would be interested in holding to such an idea. The closest I can  think that would indicate that would be:

Acts 14:  21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

and

John 16:33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

and perhaps 

2 Tim 3:10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Now, in non of these cases above, is the Great Tribulation, or Daniel's 70th week in view. So no, we do not think that it is necessary to go through that dreaded period of time, we do believe though, that the Christians who are around and within the reach of the anti-christ, well be sought out and persecuted, some even being put to death for their faith, as the book of Revelation states.

I think most of us just see that, as the faithful of God, suffering for His name's sake, just as the prophets did, the apostles did, and Christian martyrs through the centuries have and continue to do to this day. We see no reason why, one generation of believers are exempted from this normal state that believers not only have endured, but will persevere through by the grace of God, if that turns out to be His will for us.

Jesus said do not fear those who can kill the body, and in Matt 5 said: ""Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

James 1 says: 2"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Because of this honor, the rewards the being able to count it as blessing, something to be joyful about, I would not even want to skip the opportunity. I have faith that God can protect me if He wants, and will work it all out for good (Rom 8:28) whichever way it goes. I believe that when the time comes, He is able to make me stand and not faint, to serve the One who loves me and dies for me, and not cower  before His (and my) Enemies. Danielle, Shadrack, Meshack, Abednego, others in the old testament, Stephen, the Apostles, other saints over the ages, have been enables to stare death in the face. if I fail at that, no biggie, life is temporary, eternal life is eternal bliss.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Maybe not all posties have a "bring it on" attitude, but if I were to find myself in the tribulation, my attitude at present, while not under duress is "I am willing". I think our attitude was modeled for us:

"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

You ended with "Something to think about . . . "

I hope I have given you and others, something to think about also.

First off, I'm taking God at His word; God's word 1) declares the entire Tribulation the time of his wrath (Rev 6) and 2) promises we will not be subjected to it (Rev 3). God is not rescuing us from the world's wrath, but His.

Secondly: the suffering we are to go through is in our lives as we walk with the Lord, not the Tribulation. The "tribulation" spoken of by the Lord is trouble; in that respect, all of us who cling to the Lord will experience that in one way or another. But the Great Tribulation is far different in purpose: this is God's war on the Earth. It is when God finally unleashed His anger as He promised in Scripture. And if God wants to spare a generation from something, that's His prerogative. Nothing said He had to spare lot, noah or anyone else from anything. But He did.

Third: in the oft-cited Hebrew wedding custom, we never see the bride beaten to a bloody pulp and presented to the bridegroom as a disheveled, blood-stained, soiled, bruised and battered mess. 

Finally, God doesn't use suffering lightly or flippantly; Scripture tells us that "Costly in the eyes of the Lord is the death of His saints". God doesn't use people lightly then shrug; everything done is for an eternal purpose. Sometimes I think we regard suffering way too lightly, then when we are in it, scream to heaven for help; it's one thing to say "it's an honor"; it's another when you're in agonizing pain and it won't end.

I know from personal experience, and every day I look in the mirror, the scars and pain (physical and emotional) remind me. And there are people around the world who suffer far, far worse even now. When we suffer in that vein, maybe then we can talk about how much it's an "honor".  It's easy to say it; living it is another and will change you whether we like it or not.

 

[WilliamL]

 

5 hours ago, RobertS said:

I'm taking God at His word; God's word 1) declares the entire Tribulation the time of his wrath (Rev 6)...

Sez what two witnesses of Scripture, may I ask?? Rev. 6 does not use the term (Great) Tribulation, let alone equate it with God's Wrath.

[Omegaman 3.0]

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

First off, I'm taking God at His word; God's word 1) declares the entire Tribulation the time of his wrath (Rev 6) and 2) promises we will not be subjected to it (Rev 3). God is not rescuing us from the world's wrath, but His.

There is God's word, as it is written, and there is God's word that has had the ideas of men added to it. I will let others figure out, what is going on in that sense. However I am curious about what you think you are seeing and why, from the quoted comment above.

You seem to imply, that Rev 6 declares the entire tribulation, to be the time of His wrath. Oddly, the word tribulation, is not in Rev 6. The word tribulation, is also trouble, it is pressure, etc. The word tribulation, is not a measurement of any length of time, it is something that happens within time. So, for any one to say, the tribulation is 7 years, or it is 3.5 years, etc. is to make a declaration that I do not think is scriptural.

For Example, when Jesus says in Matt 24 "Then there will be great tribulation", He is not saying that then IS the great tribulation, He is stating something that occurs then. Furthermore, when that great tribulation happens, it is said by Jesus:

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Our idea of the so called "great tribulation" comes from this discourse by Jesus. It is not equated to a specific period of time, but it is given as one thing in a sequence of events, that occur with a specific marker event within the period of time that Daniel described. Daniel speaks to a week of years (7 years). This abomination of desolation, is in the middle of those 7 years. So (according to Jesus) at that point IN time, there will occur a great tribulation. So, there is nothing ambiguous here, in the middle of Daniels 70th week, an abomination will be SEEN. At THAT time, we can expect a great tribulation, and it is not (here at least) equated with any wrath of God.

So, not being described as the wrath of God (a theory of men), what is it described as?

22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 “Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 “So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.  

Now, there we see that the times will be very perilous for the elect (we can debate who they are, but there is no need of the purpose of what we are talking about). What we do understand here, is that in order to preserve life, that the period of time in which this tribulation is occurring, will be shortened. That would seem to mean that it is either limited to 3.5 years, or, possibly, even the 3.5 years is shortened, but that would take further exegesis to discover, not my intention here.

Now, as a cross reference, Rev 12 has some things to say,

 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Again, not my intent to get side tracked into different topic, but readers would find that passage interesting to draw their own conclusions from. What I think I see there, is a picture of a woman (Israel I believe) giving birth to a son (Jesus). He is a ruler (true) and is caught up to God (also true) to be at His throne (true again). She (Israel) is protected by God in the wilderness from the persecution of the dragon (mentioned in the chapter). She is protected for 1260 days. Coincidentally, 3.5 years! This dragon (the devil I believe) pursues the woman, but she is protected by God.

Rev 12 also says:

 “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

That denotes, does it not, that the accuser of the brethren (Satan, the Devil) is present in this Rev 12 scene, and that there are those who overcome him, those who overcome, by the blood of Jesus, they testify of Him, and the are willing to die. This is like Rev 20, were Christians are described as being killed during the tribulation. 

As we saw, during this time that Israel is being protected by God in the wilderness, the devil is described as having great wrath. Students of eschatology might do well to note that God is not the only source of wrath. In fact, I do not think that God's wrath is identified with the tribulation, though Satan's wrath certainly is, Satan's wrath is directed at who?

He is really ticked of, that He cannot pursue the woman (Israel) into the wilderness. So, what does he do?"

 Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

I know I am simple minded at times, but if this is during the 3.5 years as we say, and the tribulation is during the 3.5 years, and Israel is protected in the wilderness, for 3.5 years, who are these people, who are left, that the devil goes after? The are called the rest of Israel's children. As you know, Christians, the Church, are called children of Abraham, and spiritual Israel, the true Israel etc. The people here, that Satan is persecuting, directing his wrath at, are said to be people who obey God, and keep to the testimony of Jesus. Now, assuming that it is fair so say there are three type of people:

1. unbeleivers
2. Jews
3. Christians

What can we conclude? Satan is not interested in the persecution of unbeleivers, they already belong to him, they are of the world and not God's elect. The Jews are under God's protection in  the wilderness, and Satan cannot reach them. Those who are left, and are enemies of Satan, are those who obey God, keep to their Christian testimony, in short, they sure sound like Christians to me!

So what do we have?

A three and one half period of time, in the second half of Daniels 70th week. A time frame the Jesus said, will have great tribulation. Satan, pouring out his wrath on Christians present during this time of trubulation, and it is described with  the word "wrath". In this context, it sure looks fair to say that the time where great tribulation occurs, is a time of wrath against the church, by Satan, not by God.

Sorry that this little side trip went on so long, it is just what happens when I run in free thought mode, without a plan of what I am going to say.

Let's see, what was I even adressing . . . 

"First off, I'm taking God at His word; God's word 1) declares the entire Tribulation the time of his wrath (Rev 6) and 2) promises we will not be subjected to it (Rev 3). God is not rescuing us from the world's wrath, but His."

Okay, you said the Rev 6 declares that the entire Trib is the time of His wrath. We looked, and the trib is not mentioned, and wrath it scarcely mentioned, and we will look at that part in a minute. In any case, it does not say that the entire time of tribulation is Gods wrath, as anyone who reads the chapter will immediately see. In light of this, I fail to see hos that is "taking God at His word". To me it looks like adding imagination and creativity, to God's word, though I realize that no harm is meant by that, it was done with good intentions. You pointed out also, that Rev 3 says we will not be subjected to God's wrath, so let's examine that claim as well:

Not sure what version of the Bible you are reading, but I do not see the word wrath (or anger, or vengeance, etc) mentioned. Perhaps in the future, you should provide quotes for us, instead of assuming we will understand what you are referring to, out of memory, then we can see if what your are saying is actually in the word, or just in your assumptions.

There is a pattern among many pre-trib rapture advocates, of making assumptions, presumptions, inferences, conclusions, what ever you want to call them, and then redefining things to be equal to each other.I have seen it claimed, that the tribulation is equal to God's wrath. I have seen it claimed, that the tribulation is 7 years long. I have seen a lot of things like this, but I have never seen anyone offer scriptural proof of these claims. Remarkably, it is often claimed my many pre-trib rapture faithful, that they stick to the literal truth of God, while in the same breath, ignore the literal, in favor of personal interpretation. Now, I am not directing that description at you, not even attempting to imply that, it is just an observation that I think that all should keep in mind whenever that claim is made, and not just by pre-trib believers. I know that people who say such things, actually believe they are being faithful to the literal word of God, I would suggest though, that anyone that claims than, might want to check themselves out to see whether that claim is REALLY true, or if it is just something that they have come to believe about themselves.

Back to Rev 3. Since you failed to be specific, I am forced to make some conclusions on my own, if I am mistaken, please correct me. Rev 3:10, is sometimes (frequently) claimed to me a promise of protection of Christians from God's wrath. One person in this thread said in part:

Quote

 

God states very clearly, on more than one occasion that a believer is not appointed to wrath.    The only two options are they either 

A.  Will not be there for that wrath, or

B.  They will be divinely protected from that wrath.

Biblically, there is no third option.

 

Now, I am not addressing this claim above, just using is for illustrative purposes.

People may not always come to the most thorough conclusions. For example, are there only two possible conclusions? What about:

C. They are not the object nor target of said wrath, therefore need no protection

D. Wrath has nothing to do with time, it is a state of emotion of a expression of the  state. Therefore, since Jesus took Gods' wrath, God is not angry with beleivers

E. God's wrath might refer to something other that what people imply it is, in the context of verses they cite.

Relating this to to Rev 3:10

10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

There, we see the world testing, no mention of wrath. What is the justification for equating this with wrath? Furthermore, this is from a section of Revelation, that is letters written to 7 churches, Whether one believes that these at 7 historical churches, whether one believes that these represent 7 periods in the history of the church (dispensationalism), whether one believes that these represent types of churches or characteristics of churches today, or some combination thereof, we are left with one glaring issue:

What gives us a right or a justification to claim the this promise to only one of the 7 churches, should be applied to us or to the church at the time if Daniel's 70th week?

I am waiting to hear from someone:

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew you out of My mouth. ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,"

or

"I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

or

"But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds."

or

 4‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Isn't it amazing, that God has these messages for the churches, but the message we here is:

"I will keep you from the time of testing"

Even that promise is conditioned on:

"and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary."

Does that even ring true of us? No wonder some see pre-trib rapturism, as a form of easy beleiverism, or escapism, optimism, or a variation of positive confessionism. Sometimes, some of us, like the blessings, ignore the warnings, and put our fingers in our ears, click our ruby slippers together and chant "There's no place like home"!

Returning to one little thing that I meant to get to while I was examining Matt 24 was that Jesus said, after telling us that there would be a time containing great tribulation, to not be fooled by those who say to look for Jesus before the end of that time, Jesus says is coming will be visible, not secret, it will not be missed, so regarding those who say otherwise, He say of their claims of His coming:

Do NOT believe it

27“For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28“Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

When Luke describes this event, he implies that Jesus is saying that those who are taken (just is it was in the days of Noah) are taken to thier destruction, certainly no pre-trib rapture pictured in this clearest of part in the Bible, about the end times. Why do those who want to preach a pre-trib rapture, inevitibly get most of their doctrine from a non-sequential, non-literal, often confusing book (Revelation), instead of applying their value of literal understanding, from the most sequential and complete, and in plain language, description of the end time? For almost 40 years I have pondered that question, and while I have heard explanations and excuses, none of them are satisfying in terms of what is normal under rules and principles of sound exegesis. It is as it, exegesis is valid, EXCEPT when studying eschatology, we have special rules for that. 

Rereading this, I see that I never got to the part where wrath is actually mentioned in Rev 6, so:

 12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Wrath there, is mentioned twice. The first thing we should notice, is that this wrath is during the 6th seal, and not expressed as the whole of Rev 6. We also note, that the wrath is called the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus) and the second instance of the word, says that "the great day of their wrath, has come.

I do not think I am going out on a limb here to suggest, that the first instance, the word is describing wrath coming from Jesus, and the second use is describing those upon whom, that wrath is visited. The observant Bible student will notice, that there is a sequence here.

Described here is:

The sun becoming black, the moon became like blood; and the stars falling to the earth. This is a description also found in the book of Joel, called the day of the Lord, and it is very similar to the words of Jesus in Matt 24:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

the emphasis in that passage, is part of the NASB, not made by me. What I would emphasize is a few features

The whole thing about the sun, moon and stars, just before the visible coming of the Lord. What was the sequence specified?

1. Immediately after the tribulation
2. celestial phenomenon
3. the sign of the Son of Man Jesus coming on the clouds
4. Angels, trumpet, and a gathering of the elect

Call me stupid, but that sure looks like after the trib which we saw was during the second 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week, the sun goes dark, etc, THEN Jesus comes, and after that, the rapture happens (the gathering of the elect). More to the point though, how many times do we think, that the Sun will go dark, the moon will turn red, and the stars will fall from heaven? I am thinking that will probably only happen once!

If THAT assumption is true, then we have just placed the wrath in the sixth seal of Rev 6, AFTER the Tribulation, making the whole tribulation NOT the wrath of God as you have concluded.

I believe that what I have just stated, is actually taking God at His word and therefore it is impossible to hold that the entire Tribulation is the time of his wrath. If this is not the case, the best we can conclude perhaps is that neither of us is correct, but this certainly this certainly demonstrates that the trib is not the equal of God's wrath that you claim Rev 6 declares.

 

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

If you accept the Bible plainly, at it's word, everything that occurs after the 6th seal is opened is God's wrath.  There is no credible debate otherwise.  One can argue that the first 5 seals are not necessarily God's wrath because nowhere before the 6th seal is that wrath clearly stated, but after the 6th seal is opened that option is no longer available.  Everything after that is God's direct wrath. 

Yes

[ENOCH2010]

Very well explained Omega !!!!

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, then, it appears to me, that not everyone understand words, that words actually mean things, and that logic has a place in understanding the Bible. Sorry if I implied these things matter.

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Very well explained Omega !!!!

Thanks Enoch, it is always encouraging to know, that some people get it!