The Gathering of the Elect Is the Second Resurrection

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Just now, inchrist said:

So are the souls under the altar in the 5th seal

No, they still await the completion of their number.  They STILL have a glass ceiling which is their limit and has been for thousands of years.  At the opening of the fifth Seal, this is when their existence is revealed, their cry heard, and they are reassured.  However, they are not before the Father - yet.

At the completion of the one 'seven', when the Two Witnesses are killed and then resurrected, and then lifted up - then the number of martyrs is made complete - and then they are "made alive" as are the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17.

and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. - Rev 20:4

THEN and ONLY THEN does John proclaim the First Resurrection as a fact.

He does NOT do so when the Great Multitude show up IN HEAVEN out of the Great Tribulation.  They are not all who will be saved at that moment.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Moderators:  Yes, I see it is a pointless to go on.

7 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Bit of a problem

However, again to the moderators: Do you see how I might feel I am being badgered into responding?

[George]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Moderators:  Yes, I see it is a pointless to go on.

However, again to the moderators: Do you see how I might feel I am being badgered into responding?

 

Then drop out of the conversation.    Honestly, there's some points not worth discussing after a point.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 minutes ago, George said:

Then drop out of the conversation.    Honestly, there's some points not worth discussing after a point.

Agreed.  It gets to the point where it's only 'stealing my joy', as you say.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Attempts to institute some major rule based on a proverb that you have turned into an overriding principle is not wise.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

This also violates Gods principle of the "The last will be first, and the first last”

Nor does having the martyrs come last in being made alive invalidate the order of the taking up between the Dead in Christ and the Elect who remain as Paul gives us in 1st Thessalonians.  That order is strictly between those two types on the Day of the Lord; which comes long before the end of the one 'seven' in a Pre-Wrath eschatology.  Still, Pre-Wrath keeps that order intact as Paul gave it - on the Day of the Lord's Harvest of Saints.

This "principle" you speak of is actually a proverb, and it is written here:

The Disciples' Reward
Mt 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

First of all, Jesus says "many" - not all.  

That last part is better explained by real scholars who don't have an axe to grind.

The proverbial saying (v. 30) is one Jesus repeats on various occasions. Here he immediately illustrates it by a parable (20:1- 16), climaxed by the proverb in reverse form (20:16) as a closing bracket. It indicates something of the reversals under the king's reign. Attempts to restrict the application of this parable to one setting are not successful.

1. Some say the rich become poor at the consummation and the poor rich (cf. vv. 16- 29), as in Luke 16:19- 31:the story of Lazarus and the beggar. But such reversals are not absolute:Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1- 10) was a rich man to whose house salvation came; and Abraham, to whose "bosom" the beggar went, had great wealth.
2. Many of the Fathers hold that the first- last idea refers to Jews and Gentiles respectively. Doubtless it may, but this theme is not dominant in these chapters.
3. Some think the proverb assumes that the disciples had been arguing about priority on the basis of who was first called, to which Jesus responds that "the last will be first, etc." But this better suits the situation in Matthew 18 than in Matthew 19.
4. It seems preferable, therefore, to take the proverb as a way of setting forth God's grace over against all notions that the rich, powerful, great, and prominent will continue so in the kingdom. Those who approach God in childlike trust (vv. 13- 15) will be received and advanced in the kingdom beyond those who, from the world's perspective, enjoy prominence now.

~ Expositor's Bible Commentary on Matthew 19:30

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

How can one claim the mutlitudes have eternal life when John denies this very fact?

That is an unsubstantiated claim.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Before they are taken to the barn of Heaven, they are raised imperishable. 
When those who remain, are raptured, they are changed in an instant to immortal.

SO!  When they arrive before the Father - they are already eternally alive!
For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - verse 50 right before the quoted section.

They WILL experience all that is said: they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

John NEVER DENIES that they are eternally alive at that moment.  Produce his words that say that explicitly or admit it is just your (incorrect) conclusion.

[Retrobyter]

On September 13, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh really?
You know, what is NOT in the Bible is your "mass transit" scheme.

Matthew 5:3
Matthew 5:10
Matthew 5:12
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 5:20
~ and remember, because this will come up later in Revelation; God is in Heaven: Matthew 5:45
....- and that's not floating in the sky, or outer space either Mister Ultra-literal/Heaven means sky-Roy.
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 8:11
Matthew 11:11
Matthew 18:3
Matthew 18:4
Matthew 19:14
Mark 12:25
Luke 10:15
Luke 10:20
~ and remember, because it's coming up, Jesus goes to Heaven in Luke 24:51
John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
2nd Corinthians 12:2
Philippians 3:20
Revelation 4:2
Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
~ What John is describing is the entire Church and OT Saints, having been resurrected and Raptured, standing before God IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 11:12
Revelation 14:17
Revelation 19:14

Now go and quote Book, chapter, and verse of all the times Scripture says we're plunked right back down into the devastation of the enemy in the Middle East, wherever you imagine we're set that you've said, but I immediately dismissed as fantasy.

Shalom, Marcus.

You know what I find ironic is that you can look right at a verse of Scripture, read what you want to out of that Scripture verse, and COMPLETELY IGNORE the rest of it!

Matthew 5:45
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven (Greek: tou en ouranois = "the-[One] in [the]-sky"): for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
KJV

What's important to an agricultural society? Isn't it sunshine and rain? (The word for "sendeth rain" is "brechei"; that is, He "moistens" the earth with a gentle rain! He's not talking about a hard, damaging rain.)

Oh, and I'm not done, yet. There's more to come, but this is all I have time for this morning. Just a note: You need to understand what "the kingdom of heaven" means.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Retrobyter

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

There is no difference between the scene before us in the 5th seal to that which we find of the multitudes in Rev 7

There is no difference?

Making the Bible say what you want it to say, are we?

If you don't see any difference, there is no way to teach you how they are different in more ways than one.

You have NO logical rebuttal to the evidence provided in my previous post regarding the changing of mortal to immortal, so you are now pulling at straws and throwing mud everywhere hoping something sticks.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You need to understand what "the kingdom of heaven" means.

Oh! God is up in the clouds making it rain and shine.  Yes, I know that's what you teach.  Thank-you, I already understand quite a bit on the Kingdom of Heaven means; enough to know that when John goes to the third Heaven, he's not in outer space.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

My rebuttal was very clear John does not see them having eternal life

Oh sorry, but it doesn't and you're anything less than clear.