Is Salvation Conditional??

[woundeddog]

and I guess as an after thought, why would Jesus go through all the trouble of saving a person only to lose them because they couldnt measure up???

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Christ but then later would repent.

justifying text for continued fellow ship would be Peter in the court yard and the rooster calling thrice

[RustyAngeL]

19 hours ago, woundeddog said:

it says IF they should fall away--- it doesnt say they did fall away-- what this verse means is that if a person could fall away there would be no way to re-save them.

It doesnt talk about people who HAVE fallen away- it says IF they fall away.

I am using King James phraseology

this was a response to people that where preaching you could lose salvation by sinning  and then regain it by repentance---- that sin would "unsave " you and repentance would "resave " you

 

this is one of those troublesome verses that need to be looked at for what they actually say, not what we might think they are saying

I believe it is as it says. Those who have turned so far away and their hearts become so hard and cold, as said it makes it impossible for them to return.  They have known the Lord and seen and tasted of His goodness.  Some believe that when you are under grace as we are, it gives a green light to do whatever they want.  I have seen such people.  A harden heart changes everything.  It takes the light off scripture, it's truth and puts the light on the spirit of pride. I just want people to know there is a boundary.

Thanks brother for your input and being so gracious about it.

Blessings, RustyAngeL  

[markdohle]

This really is a  dead horse debate with different sides using scripture, best to puts ones trust in God and live each day as it comes.  We are free, so it is possible for someone who once knew Christ Jesus to turn away, it is a relationship, a two way street.  Yes it depends on grace, but if grace forces then it is not grace at all.  However the love of God is not easy to reject, so I agree, for one who turns away from Christ, going to hell is hell itself.

Also sending people to hell, or saying they are not Christian because they don't fully understand the how of works/grace has its problem.  For then it is stated that we are saved by grace, but only after we 'do' one thing, we have correct understanding. 

We are told not to judge another human being.  I believe this is true because Jesus Christ died for all and works in each soul in ways that we will never understand here.  Our understandings are based on human experience more or less, that has an effect on how we read and understand the Scriptures.  Love all and pray for all, for God's judgments are true, while ours, well, nope.

 

[woundeddog]

3 hours ago, Yowm said:

Some might say Peter wasn't converted at the time..

I think Peter was saved, but not fully dedicated ( converted)

¹⁰ Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. (not all being Judas) which also addresses the fact that some think Judas was saved but rejected his salvation by betraying Jesus.

[woundeddog]

2 hours ago, markdohle said:

Also sending people to hell, or saying they are not Christian because they don't fully understand the how of works/grace has its problem.

I'm not sure if you are saying that I am sending people to hell or judging them because that is not my intention-- but understanding how grace works is critical because the Bible tells us to " Examine ourselves to see if we be of the faith" a sad thing is for a person to believe they have a saving relationship and find out too late they where wrong. We do no one a favor by letting them think they are right if they may be missing the mark-- we are not to judge a persons intentions but we certainly can judge their actions and when we judge we should do it in an appropriate way because the way we judge is how we will be judged-- harshly or with mercy~~~~

Matthew 7 : 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

² For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[RustyAngeL]

6 hours ago, woundeddog said:

and I guess as an after thought, why would Jesus go through all the trouble of saving a person only to lose them because they couldnt measure up???

We are not talking about measuring up.  We are speaking of a Christian who willfully goes and chooses the darkness to the Light.  To continue in things that they KNOW    are not right.  Not the ones who struggle and yet have that heart for God.  One who say I choose to go the other way, you don't think those people exist?

I don't understand how much more clear that scripture can be.  As I said it like someone who is not saved and continues to say no to the Holy Spirit.  They come to a point where their heart is so hard it will become impossible for them to say yes to the Holy Spirit.

The fact of the matter is none of us could measure up and it is only by the Holy Spirit that we are here.  But if we should begin to just turn our backs on Him and live like the world delving into all sorts of things yet knowing the truth but paying no mind to it, that person can grow so cold that nothing matters anymore except the pleasures of this world.

 

[woundeddog]

27 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said:

We are not talking about measuring up.  We are speaking of a Christian who willfully goes and chooses the darkness to the Light.

I guess maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways-- Jesus said " If you love me keep my commandments"-- if a person chooses darkness over light- they aren't keeping his commandments, which I think shows they don't love him, so my question is can a real Christian not love Jesus?-- If a person says they are a Christian but chooses habitually darkness over light, are they really a christian to start with?? I dont think so, of course I cant see their hearts like Jesus can, but we are supposed to judge a tree by its fruit-- if the fruit is darkness and sin, I think its safe to say the Holy Spirit does not reside there.

 

I agree that an unbeliever can say no so many times the Spirit stops striving with them.

[markdohle]

1 hour ago, woundeddog said:

I'm not sure if you are saying that I am sending people to hell or judging them because that is not my intention-- but understanding how grace works is critical because the Bible tells us to " Examine ourselves to see if we be of the faith" a sad thing is for a person to believe they have a saving relationship and find out too late they where wrong. We do no one a favor by letting them think they are right if they may be missing the mark-- we are not to judge a persons intentions but we certainly can judge their actions and when we judge we should do it in an appropriate way because the way we judge is how we will be judged-- harshly or with mercy~~~~

Matthew 7 : 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

² For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Thank you for your clarification.  Though I did not really think you were saying that, but I needed something like this.  Bottom line, each day commit yourself, run the race, if you fall admit it get up and look to Jesus and not our ourselves.  Over time trust will flower and bloom.

[RustyAngeL]

2 hours ago, woundeddog said:

I guess maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways-- Jesus said " If you love me keep my commandments"-- if a person chooses darkness over light- they aren't keeping his commandments, which I think shows they don't love him, so my question is can a real Christian not love Jesus?-- If a person says they are a Christian but chooses habitually darkness over light, are they really a christian to start with?? I dont think so, of course I cant see their hearts like Jesus can, but we are supposed to judge a tree by its fruit-- if the fruit is darkness and sin, I think its safe to say the Holy Spirit does not reside there.

 

I agree that an unbeliever can say no so many times the Spirit stops striving with them.

Yes there is a scripture that says God's Spirit will not always strive with man.