Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Furthermore, WHEN the Day of the LORD comes to pass, I would put it to you that Jesus will remove said abomination from the Temple as He also defiles and redeems the Land of Israel with the washing of blood on the Day of the Lord, setting up Israel as a rock on which to later smash the nations.

I think a picture of His Return to the Temple on that Day is envisioned by Ezekiel in chapter 9 of his book.

[douggg]

27 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The little horn that rises up from the four horns (the divided Greek Kingdom) in Daniel 8:9 is Antiochus.

No, it is not Antiochus.   Because that little horn commits the transgression of desolation, which that vision is for the time of the end.

You are just wanting so hard to insert Antiocus because you have embedded it into your mind.

You need to adjust your thinking in terms of "geographic location".      There were four kings following Alexander - none of whom were Antiochus - which began the four breakup kingdoms.   Those kingdoms defined certain geographic locations toward the four winds of heaven.     So it is alerting you of the geographic locations  that four kings were over.

Out of one of the four winds of heaven territories - at the time of the end -  a little horn will come forth.     Which geographically, north and west of Israel, we are looking at what is today modern Greece.      Antiochus is not even in the picture, as he of the Seleucid's, and is not time of the end.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=the+four+break+up+greek+empires&view=detailv2&&id=B5FF60683339E01C779A3035203718E3D6752BB0&selectedIndex=0&ccid=B50xlZ99&simid=608049911526458816&thid=OIP.M079d31959f7d510cccdb002de10ae50cH0&ajaxhist=0

 

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 

The little horn end times person is going to head down toward Israel with a strong army.   He will be the prince who shall come.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by douggg

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Douggg said:

22 hours ago, douggg said:

 That person is the Anti-christ, forthcoming)  which will take place in the first part of the 70th week.

And RM said:

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have often asked, but never gotten an answer, where does this false narrative come from ? 

And I can answer that.

Most of the descriptions we have of the anti-Christ come from Daniel.  
This is not surprising because he is a man of the world, and Daniel concerns itself with the nations of the world, showing as its theme, God's authority over the kings and kingdoms of this world to set them up and take them down - ultimately replacing them with His Kingdom on earth, just as we pray: "on earth, as it is in Heaven".

• We find the ant-Christ as the little horn in Daniel 7:9 who rises up from the fourth terrible beast.
• The anti-Christ has a template in Antiochus, who serves as a near-term prophecy in Daniel 8, which "pertains" (but does not translate 1:1) to the end-times.
• We find the anti-Christ in Gabriel's message to Daniel in chapter 9 as the "ruler who will come".
• We can find the anti-Christ in the last major vision Daniel receives in chapter 11 where the generational account of the Selucid/Ptomemy wars gets to the abomination Antiochus sets up in 11:31 which acts as a lens of dual focus, shifting the narrative to the far-term, which is still our future with an unknown ruler described in 11:36-39, and the actions he takes in 11:40-45.

The anti-Christ is mentioned as a individual by John in his letters to the Church.

Lastly, we can see the anti-Christ as the beast-of-a-man in Revelation chapter 13.  Here he is said to suffer a false death; have a false resurrection; and hence becomes a false (anti-) Christ worshiped by the wicked.

So the presumption Revelation Man makes is that the anti-Christ is a false narrative, when in reality, he looks at these passages with a totally different mindset.

It's not that they're not there - it's that he doesn't accept them.

Which does not mean they don't exist... just that he doesn't accept them as existing and becoming the basis for a literal, future fulfillment of these end-time prophetic passages.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I said:

Quote

The little horn that rises up from the four horns (the divided Greek Kingdom) in Daniel 8:9 is Antiochus.

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

No, it is not Antiochus.   Because that little horn commits the transgression of desolation, which that vision is for the time of the end.

No, again, and this is getting repetitious.

I look at Daniel 8 as detailing the near-term future to Daniel about a figure that PERTAINS to the end-times.

That chapter details the transition from the Medes-Persian Empire to Alexander the Great, which then devolves into four factions set against each other, out of which Antiochus arises.

It is not something of my own wishing: it is a matter of what is written in the text.

You do not have to make this personal.  It's not personal.  It's a matter of individual interpretation, and I just happen to disagree with yours.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Thus reading Rev 13:14-15 has happening after Rev 13:5, resonates with the abomination of desolation coming at the midpoint of the one 'seven' as per Daniel 9:27.

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is the block of time that the beast rules the world in the absence of the two witnesses.

The abomination of desolation, the image, however is tied to the slaying and come back to life beast.    Which both the slaying/come back alive and the image when it is made takes place before the 42 months.           

The Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation by going into the temple and claiming to be God. It will be a few months (we can only estimate) before the mid-point of the 70th week. He will be killed for the act and be brought back to life as the beast. The image is then made of him, the AoD, and placed in the temple on day 1185 of the 70th week. Which the great tribulation begins then.

The Jews begin to flee, as the beast battles the two witnesses and eventually kills them on day 1260, the midpoint.      The beast rules for the remaining 42 months with the two witnesses gone.
 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I said:

No, again, and this is getting repetitious.

I look at Daniel 8 as detailing the near-term future to Daniel about a figure that PERTAINS to the end-times.

That chapter details the transition from the Medes-Persian Empire to Alexander the Great, which then devolves into four factions set against each other, out of which Antiochus arises.

It is not something of my own wishing: it is a matter of what is written in the text.

You do not have to make this personal.  It's not personal.  It's a matter of individual interpretation, and I just happen to disagree with yours.

You are presenting a narrative - taking from Daniel 11... and misapplying it to Daniel 8.

The vision of the transgression by the little horn is time of the end.   That is what is the text.    Antiochus is not time of the end.   He is not the little horn.

"That chapter details the transition from the Medes-Persian Empire to Alexander the Great, which then devolves into four factions set against each other, out of which Antiochus arises."

Chapter 8 doesn't say anything about four factions set against each other.     You are getting that from Daniel 11.   Not Daniel 8.    Antiohcus is in Daniel 11.   Not Daniel 8.       

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is the block of time that the beast rules the world in the absence of the two witnesses.

Agreed, it is during his ascendancy.
During this time, he will wage war on the Saints and oppress them.
 

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

The abomination of desolation, the image, however is tied to the slaying and come back to life beast.   

Disagreed.

I maintain in accordance with Daniel 927 that the abomination (of) desolation happens at the midpoint of one 'seven' and is revealed in Revelation (duh) as the talking image of the anti-Christ.
 

4 minutes ago, douggg said:

Which both the slaying/come back alive and the image when it is made takes place before the 42 months.

I don't think so.

I think the false death and the false resurrection of the false Christ (anti-Christ) happens during this time.  Connected to the introduction and description of the false prophet, the beast from the "land" (Israel) is this:

...to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. (v.14)

Which I think goes back to something which happens during the description of the anti-Christ here:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb...

This comes after John describes how he will make war and overcome the Saints.

I think they are worshiping him because of this so-called "miracle" happened in that time frame, i.e., during the first half of the one 'seven'.

 

12 minutes ago, douggg said:

The Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation by going into the temple and claiming to be God. It will be a few months (we can only estimate) before the mid-point of the 70th week.

Disagreed.

I think it will be in accordance with 2Th 2:4 which is I think is coincidental with Daniel 9:27.

The anti-Christ invades the Holy Land, encamps by the Holy Mountain (Dan 11:45) and then makes his grand entrance.

The false prophet, in capitulating to the anti-Christ, presents him with the talking image of himself, and then the unspeakable happens: the proclamation of godhood and the talking image.
 

16 minutes ago, douggg said:

The image is then made of him, the AoD, and placed in the temple on day 1185 of the 70th week. Which the great tribulation begins then.

Again, I disagree on your formulaic calculation based in part on Daniel 8, and again I revert to deference to Daniel 9:27; the AoD happens at mid-week of the one 'seven'.
 

18 minutes ago, douggg said:

the beast battles the two witnesses and eventually kills them on day 1260, the midpoint.      The beast rules for the remaining 42 months with the two witnesses gone.

I totally disagree with your timeline.

 

Don't ask me why this is here.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

You are presenting a narrative - taking from Daniel 11... and misapplying it to Daniel 8.

I am not misapplying Daniel 11 to Daniel 8.

Daniel 8 concerns the transfer from the Medes/Persians to the Greeks.  WE DISAGREE ON THIS POINT AND WE WILL PROBABLY NEVER AGREE.

In the latter part of that story, Antiochus is referenced as the little horn.  He has significant relevance to the future anti-Christ.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1 hour ago, douggg said:

The abomination of desolation, the image, however is tied to the slaying and come back to life beast.   

Disagreed.

I maintain in accordance with Daniel 927 that the abomination (of) desolation happens at the midpoint of one 'seven' and is revealed in Revelation (duh) as the talking image of the anti-Christ.

Here is what the text says...

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

So, before the image is made - the person must be killed and brought back to life.

Maybe if I explain in list form....

1. on some unknown day in the first half of the 70th week - the Antichrist suddenly, unexpectedly, goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. The Day of the Lord begins then. It ends when Jesus returns.

2. God is angered by the act and has the person killed. And in disdain for the person has him brought back to life as the beast. We don't know what day on the timeline the person is killed and we don't know when he is brought back to life. Only that it takes place sometime during the first half before day 1185 - I will explain.

3. When the person is brought back to life, it is as the beast. The false prophet has the world make the image of him, and the image setup on day 1185, as the abomination of desolation. Pinned to being 1335 days before Jesus Returns on day 2520. That gives us a firm day on the timeline.

4. So on day 1185, the great tribulation begins. And the Jews begin to flee. The beast battles the two witnesses as they flee. He kills the two witnesses on day 1260. 3 1/2 days later on day 1263.5 the two witnesses rise and depart the earth. Then starts the 42 months free reign by the beast without having to deal with the two witnesses.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I am not misapplying Daniel 11 to Daniel 8.

Daniel 8 concerns the transfer from the Medes/Persians to the Greeks.  WE DISAGREE ON THIS POINT AND WE WILL PROBABLY NEVER AGREE.

In the latter part of that story, Antiochus is referenced as the little horn.  He has significant relevance to the future anti-Christ.

"Daniel 8 concerns the transfer from the Medes/Persians to the Greeks."    Part of Daniel 8 is, obviously.   That is not the point of disagreement.

 It is the time of the end part in Daniel 8 of the person waxing strong from north and west of Israel - that you have the time of the end little horn as being Antiochus of 160 bc - that we are never going to agree on.

 

Anito