Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 minutes ago, douggg said:

It is and was known - not because there is a specific verse in the bible as "the Anti-Christ will be the King of Israel" but because it was common knowledge back then of what "the" messiah meant - the promised great King of Israel, descended from David.    The prefix "Anti" was understood by everyone.    John said in 1John2:18... of what was common knowledge back then..... 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

You know Cyrus was called a messiah in Scripture, and he wasn't an Israelite ~ Isa 45:1.

In fact, he didn't even worship the God of Israel.  He worshiped Marduk and other pagan deities.

[Guest Robert]

Just now, douggg said:

This is what I have been telling you about Daniel 8, the little horn waxing strong from the geographic location once one of the four break up kingdoms.

8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Following Gog/Magog, he moves into the middle east to gobble up all the oil rich territories all around Israel, in the wake of their destruction, and occupies them with his army.      You can see why the Europeans will love the guy, plus there is so much anti-islam sentiment building up in europe right now by the native populations, that is is going to be politically popular.   

Moving his army in the middle east following Gog/Magog will be under the pretense of keeping peace.      Confirming covenant for 7 year is not a peace pact, but his arrival will be on the pretense of peace.       The Jews will see him, in the wake of Gog/Magog, as being their messiah,  and the false prophet will anoint him the King of Israel.     Just as Samuel the prophet anointed both Saul and David.

Still does not indicate that it is Greece; if you look at Daniel 11, it goes into detail on the breakup of Alexander the Great's empire. Later on in that chapter, it and compares the AC to other historical leaders who held the title "king of the North." This, along with  Daniel 8:21-24, places the AC as  basing in the northern kingdom of the split-up Greek Empire. This kingdom was ruled by Seleucus (on of Alexander's generals), and was comprised of of Syria, the Mesopotamian area and "Persia" (now "Iran" and "Iraq"). So considering that, nothing says it has to be Greece proper.

Not to mention that Scripture says this:

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." (Daniel 9:26, NASB)

The ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple were the Romans. Israel is not going to accept a gentile leader, and Revelation 13 reinforces that:

"And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven." (Revelation 13:1-6, NASB, emphasis mine)

The "land" and the "sea" have been telling references in prophecy, usually denoting the Jews (land) and the Gentiles (sea). The reference to the AC coming from the "sea" does not really give much room for him to be a Jew here.

[douggg]

39 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Aaaah - NO.

That verse does NOT establish the anti-Christ as the King of Israel.

He is the "ruler" who will come, so he is a king - but verse does not make it known.

This is the first I've ever heard of such a proposition.

do you know why it is that you have not heard the Antichrist will be the King of israel  (illegimate)?     Because we are 2000 years of Christianity removed from what was common knowledge to them living back in that day, in Israel.   

When we us the term Christ it is synonymous with Jesus - the Savior from our Sins.      So we don't think of Christ as being the King of Israel.

The verse 1John2:18 doesn't establish that the Antichrist will be the KIng of Israel - the verse indicates that it was common knowledge  to them John was talking to that the Antichrist was coming who would be thought by the Jews as being "the Christ" - the King of Israel, son of David - instead of Jesus, based on common knowledge, a given, core belief that "the messiah", "the Christ" in greek meant the promised great King of Israel son of David.

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

Still does not indicate that it is Greece; if you look at Daniel 11, it goes into detail on the breakup of Alexander the Great's empire. Later on in that chapter, it and compares the AC to other historical leaders who held the title "king of the North." This, along with  Daniel 8:21-24, places the AC as  basing in the northern kingdom of the split-up Greek Empire. This kingdom was ruled by Seleucus (on of Alexander's generals), and was comprised of of Syria, the Mesopotamian area and "Persia" (now "Iran" and "Iraq"). So considering that, nothing says it has to be Greece proper.

Hi Robert, we are not going to have a replay of the Ptolomey's and the Seleucids.    It happened, it is over.

 The little horn in Daniel 8 is end times, and does not wax strong from the north - but from the north and west.      On the map that would be Greece.     Parts of Turkey are north and west as well, but the nation of Turkey as a whole is north of Israel.

Greece is the eastern most frontier of the EU.    I am not saying that the little horn is from Greece - only that Greece is where he will stage his army prior to the Gog/Magog invasion - he attempts to deter.

In the end times passages in Daniel 11, it doesn't say the person is the King of the North (or king of the West for that matter).    The person is referred as "he" and "him" in Daniel 11:36-45.      That he is the King of West has to be ascertained from other bible verses....  and from the military reality of who can wage such conflicts against the other three quadrants of the world.

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by douggg

[Marcus O'Reillius]

20 minutes ago, douggg said:

The verse 1John2:18 doesn't establish that the Antichrist will be the KIng of Israel - the verse indicates that it was common knowledge  to them John was talking to that the Antichrist was coming who would be thought by the Jews as being "the Christ" - the King of Israel, son of David - instead of Jesus, based on common knowledge, a given, core belief that "the messiah", "the Christ" in greek meant the promised great King of Israel son of David.

Pretty cheeky of you to speak for people who can't speak for themselves.

No, you have no direct evidence, or even contributing evidence for your contention.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

Not to mention that Scripture says this:

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." (Daniel 9:26, NASB)

The ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple were the Romans. Israel is not going to accept a gentile leader, and Revelation 13 reinforces that:

"And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven." (Revelation 13:1-6, NASB, emphasis mine)

The "land" and the "sea" have been telling references in prophecy, usually denoting the Jews (land) and the Gentiles (sea). The reference to the AC coming from the "sea" does not really give much room for him to be a Jew here.

The person will be from the Romans, the end times version of the Roman Empire, the EU.    But that doesn't mean he is a gentile.    There are Jews in nearly every nation of the world.

The person in Revelation 13, that last 42 months - is after he has gone through his Antichrist stage - where he becomes the King of Israel, betrays them, and is no longer their king.      In Revelation 13, he is the beast, and the EU, his kingdom is his affiliation, not Israel at that time, and he persecutes the Jews, for rejecting him and his claim of being God or having attained God-hood.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You know Cyrus was called a messiah in Scripture, and he wasn't an Israelite ~ Isa 45:1.

In fact, he didn't even worship the God of Israel.  He worshiped Marduk and other pagan deities.

Yes, but Cyrus was not "the" messiah.

Marcus, we have to look at what the Jews think about the messiah, to see how they are gong to be fooled.    To do that, you have to research their sites, like Judaism 101. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm    

The reason I know so much about this stuff is because I have been communicating with them at their counter(Christian)missionary sites for over ten years arguing back and forth, over 4000 posts.   Very few Christians have that sort of background - because it comes with a beating, the whole step of the way.

It is frustrating to me to come to my fellow Christians, at the eschatology sites to talk about the end times, because they lack the background information.   So I have to go through an education process like the last bunch of posts - which I get argued against at every turn.   It's another beat down.     I go through it all the time.  

Edited October 10, 2016 by douggg

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 minutes ago, douggg said:

The person in Revelation 13, that last 42 months -

The half of the one 'seven' in Revelation 13 comes before the midpoint abomination of the talking image of the man.
 

11 minutes ago, douggg said:

- where he becomes the King of Israel,

Scripture never says that.

Here is a part of the description of the man:

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard- of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

I go through it all the time.  

1. Why are there 5 lines of blank space after your posts?
2. I can understand that.
3. There is still no Scriptural reference for what you allege.

[douggg]

7 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1. Why are there 5 lines of blank space after your posts?
2. I can understand that.
3. There is still no Scriptural reference for what you allege.

The 5 lines of blank space are because I used invisible ink.      They are probably gone now.   Why don't you go check.