Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No it was not....AE4 could not have done battle with Jesus (Prince of princes) nor was he defeated by the Holy Spirit (broken without hand) Daniel 7 and 8 is TWO EMPIRES that are both applicable, the Anti-Christ arises out of both of them.

I don't think you have a reading anywhere near the how I am reading Daniel 8, and with some of the stuff you post, I don't think I'll ever be able to show you a way of reading the text which differs so much from how you do read it as evidenced by your conclusion here.

Just to let you know, though, I thoroughly disagree with your conclusion that the anti-Christ arises out of two separate Kingdoms.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

...the rapture ...will take place sometime before the Antichrist goes into to the temple , sitting, claiming to be God.   

Paul laid out the sequence-of-events in 2Th 2:1-8.

1. The rebellion
2. The Son of Perdition revealed.
3. The Day of Christ (of the Lord)
4. Our being gathered (Rapture) to Him.

Paul's linear, sequenced, narrative to the Thessalonians says the Rapture will take place sometime AFTER the anti-Christ goes into the Temple.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Actually they will for a short time -until he commits the transgression of desolation, the act of going into the temple sitting claiming to be God.

Jonn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

And you did not answer my question. "if you were a Jew, who is waiting for your messiah,  what would the "Messiah" mean to you?"    Why don't you go to their sites and read up on what the messsiah actually means to Jews.

You can't just say that the Jews will not accept the Antichrist, believing that he is the real messiah - when Jesus said if another come in his own name, him ye will receive.    And what Jews themselves say.    

 

The person who becomes the Anti-Christ is not a gentile, but a Jew.

Actually the Anti-Christ doesn't go into the Temple and say I am God. The False Prophet places an Image of the Anti-Christ in a Wing/Section of the Temple and demands everyone the world over to Worship it or perish. (Read Daniel 9:27 in a Hebrew bible with strong's definition, study the words....Confirm, (Be Strong/Insolent) Overspreading, ( A Wing a Quarter of a Building or a pinnacle)  Abomination ( Filthy, Idolatrous or an Idol ) and Desolation ( to Stupefy, Stun or to make numb ). Reference Rev. 13 where the False Prophet makes an Image of the Beast. In short, Daniel 9:27 means the Anti-Christ arrogantly forces an Agreement, reneges on the agreement, places (F.P.) an IDOL (of the Beast) in a Wing of the Temple and this shocks or stuns Israel. Then they Flee to the Wilderness.

John 5:43 is actually referring to all the Messiahs that the Jews tried to bring forth after Jesus died in order to quench the spread of Christianity. A few were Vespasian, who Flavious Josephus claimed was the Messiah, and Simon bar Kokhba of the 2nd Century who led the revolt against Rome, Rabbi Akiva crowned him as the Messiah. So two Jewish leaders withing 100 years of Jesus' death brought forth Messiahs. And there were more claims. 

I did answer the question, in that when the Rapture happens, they will understand, Christians are Right, Jesus was the true Messiah. Also Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will turn Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath). Like I said earlier, if they accepted the Anti-Christ as the Messiah, and he demanded to be worshiped, WHY would Israel be shocked and flee for the Wilderness ? 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

No-one knows exactly when the rapture is going to be, except that it will take place sometime before the Antichrist goes into to the temple , sitting, claiming to be God.        Which that act by the Antichrist takes place approximately 3 years 3 months after he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate).

During that 3 years 3months, there will be many Christians who will fall away from believing that Jesus is the messiah, and will think the Antichrist is the true messiah.    This falling away is found in 2thessalonians2;3

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I do........And most of Christendom seems to understand. I go deep into the reasons, but the easiest thing I ever read was Revelation chapter 19, you can not have Rev. 19 even happen without a pre-tribulation Rapture. But Paul used the same word used in Revelation 17 when he said I tell you a Mystery, (SECRET BY GODS SILENCE) not everyone will die, some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye....The word musterion is used, meaning secret or mystery. God has kept the Rapture a secret, Israel never needed to understand it in the Old Testament, because basically, they will not be a part of this Rapture, God knows all things. But there are hints of the process in the Old Testament, you just have to dig for them, THIS IS DEEP....Read Leviticus chapter 23, and read about the 7 Feasts and the Appointed Times...............I put this together a while back, it is fascinating. 

 

The Seven Feasts of Leviticus 23

Three Spring Feasts are Passover, First-fruits and Unleavened Bread, Jesus fulfilled these three with His Death. 

Feast of Passover (His Blood is our Passover)
Feast of First-fruits ( Jesus was the first-fruits of God, risen from the grave)
Feast of Unleavened Bread ( Jesus was WITHOUT SIN ) 

Then guess what, we have a Feast all by its lonesome, not in the SPRING nor in the FALL but ALL ALONE it is called the Feast of Pentecost..................BOOM, The Harvest.

The Feast of Pentecost is the Harvest. We the Church are Harvesting Souls for God and have been for 2000 years, Jesus is the Head we are the Body. Since this seems confusing I will be a little more complex here and keep the other Feasts as simple as possible.

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - First Corinthians 6:20
At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again. { Meaning that we are Married to the Lamb in Rev. 19, when he CALLS/SHOUTS FOR US/CHURCH to come up to the Marriage as the Bridegroom. }

“in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” - Ephesians 1:13-14

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner. 

Now when Jesus comes for the Church (us Saints/Bride) PENTECOST will be over, the CHURCH AGE will be over and the 70th Week of Israel will be ACTIVATED. The Gentiles time will have been FULFILLED !! Israel will again be in the clock so to speak, she has one Week left (7 Years) to REPENT from her sins and DWELL with God. Daniels 70th Week Decree supplied us with everything Israel must do before the Lord comes back to save them (that is after the Rapture of the Church) Here are Daniels goals that MUST BE FULFILLED...........I repeat must be fulfilled before Jesus can return again and rescue a repentant Israel.

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( Israel has to turn from their REVOLT against God/Messiah )
2. Make and end of sins ( This is everyday sins, only Jesus can usher this in )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( Israel has to ATONE for her sins against God )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness ( Only Jesus can do this, but only after Israel Repents )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( All Prophecy must be FULFILLED )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( Jesus is anointed as the Lord of Lords and Kings of Kings/Messiah )

So the Pentecost (Church Age Ends) and the Church/Saints are called to the Marriage Chambers of the Lamb, where by JEWISH TRADITIONS, we spend 7 Days (Seven Years) in the Chambers. (in Heaven)

The Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The father of the groom (Jewish Wedding) determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36) 

The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”  { Last Trump of the Feast of Trumpets !!  It calls us HOME to the Bridal Chambers it seems. }

Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus/Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper. The next appointed time is the Day of Atonement. This indicates that at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus will return to redeem and make Atonement for Israel.

So we the Church are in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb who has built us a Marriage Chamber. God is now going to Deal with Israels Revolt/Sinful ways in the final 7 Years of Daniels prophecy of Seventy Sevens. The Pentecost (CHURCH AGE) is over and all that Remains is the THREE FALL FEASTS.

Feast of Trumpets, this Feast never did do anything, even in Leviticus 23, BUT....... ANNOUNCE THE COMING PLANS OF GOD !! Or the end of Pentecost (Harvest) and the beginning of the other two Fall Feasts. It Announced that PENTECOST WAS OVER and the Feasts of ATONEMENT and the Feasts of TABERNACLE were nigh at hand. Is this kind of what happens to the Church ? The LAST TRUMP ? It calls the Church HOME !! Pentecost is OVER and Israel is back on the Clock for she must make what ? ATONEMENT !! Hello............then Israel can Dwell (Tabernacle) with God again. 

Feast of Atonement....... and just like the 70th Week Decree says, ISRAEL MUST ATONE.......Next step in the process. Once Israel atones for her sins then what happens ?

She DWELLS WITH GOD...That is what Tabernacle Means.

The Feast of Tabernacle finishes the last of the APPOINTED TIMES !! Israel after receiving the Atonement for their Sins, by accepting Jesus as their Messiah, will then DWELL WITH GOD AGAIN........Then we the Church comes back with Jesus on White Horses, we land on Mount Zion, and we kick Satan and the Anti-Christs rear end. Israel is welcomed into the Barn, while the Tares are bound for BURNING in a 1000 years. 

We are the Bride of Christ and Israel is the Bride of God. 

We have different callings and APPOINTED TIMES.

 

 

[Revelation Man]

42 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I don't think you have a reading anywhere near the how I am reading Daniel 8, and with some of the stuff you post, I don't think I'll ever be able to show you a way of reading the text which differs so much from how you do read it as evidenced by your conclusion here.

Just to let you know, though, I thoroughly disagree with your conclusion that the anti-Christ arises out of two separate Kingdoms.

You disagreeing with me doesn't change the facts. 

The Birth Place of the Anti-Christ Revealed

 

Isaiah says the Anti-Christ is an Assyrian.The Anti-Christ is said to come to power via the fourth beast in the last days per Daniel Chapter Seven. The Anti-Christ is also said to arise out of the Grecian empire in the last days, so how do we reconcile these different understandings ?

This is established fairly easily, Daniel did say the understandings would be bound up until the end. The Anti-Christ in Daniel chapters seven and eight is shown, if read properly, to arise out of two kingdoms at once, but how can this be ?

Daniel chapter seven is fairly straightforward, we understand this to be about the four beast systems, the fourth beast is where the little horn (Anti-Christ) will arise out of, most everyone understands the fourth beast to have been Rome, but in the last days/end times this has to be the European Union.

Now Daniel chapter eight is explained in detail by Gabriel the angel, was the he goat (Alexander the Great) conquering Persia ( the Ram ) and Gabriel interpreted this dream for Daniel.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 We should note, this is speaking of the end time, it is not speaking of Antiochus who came before Jesus was even born. The word Indignation means: ( Greek Word za'am meaning Gods Fury at Sin) so at the Last End of Indignation means right before Gods Judgment of Sin/Vials or Bowls of Gods Wrath (Revelation).

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. ( The Four Generals that stood up in Alexanders stead were Ptolemy , Seleucus , Cassander and Lysimachus. )

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is clearly speaking about the end times/last days when the sins have come full/ bowls of Gods wrath, a fierce king shall arise out of one of the four kingdoms that stood up in Alexander the Greats Stead, speaking dark sentences (understanding Riddles and conundrums) and he comes to power. 

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: (Satan Possesses him) and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, (he claims to Be God) and by peace shall destroy many:(Through a Peace Treaty he deceives many) he shall also stand up against the Prince (Jesus) of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 Jesus destroys the Anti-Christ his kings and their armies without hand ( with the Sword of the Spirit/Holy Spirit) by the countenance of his coming, Amen. This guy magnifies himself and says in the temple of God, I am God !! 

Now,  so many people say this is about Antiochus, so I always feel the need to prove that this is about the end times, when Gods wrath is come full. This is about the little horn/Anti-Christ. And he arises out of their kingdom in the last days,  so in essence he arises out of one of the Four Generals kingdoms in the last days, but which one ? Well, since the Anti-Christ arises out of the fourth beast also, then this other Kingdom has to lie within the borders of the European Union. Only Cassander's kingdom of Greece is in the European Union !! The "Assyrian" arising from Greece would be very, very possible since Greece shares a border with Turkey, and many, many Turks live in Greece, so the Assyrian Anti-Christ is born in Greece, and comes to power in Greece, then in the European Union. But what does John say in Revelation about the Beast that arises out of the Sea ? By the way, he was on Patmos, a small Greek Island when he saw this vision.

Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The Main body is described by John as like a leopard !!

Put it all together, the "Assyrian" Anti-Christ is born in Greece, of Turkish parents or grandparents , he comes to power in the European Union.

This is where the Anti-Christ is from.  

[Revelation Man]

41 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Paul laid out the sequence-of-events in 2Th 2:1-8.

1. The rebellion
2. The Son of Perdition revealed.
3. The Day of Christ (of the Lord)
4. Our being gathered (Rapture) to Him.

Paul's linear, sequenced, narrative to the Thessalonians says the Rapture will take place sometime AFTER the anti-Christ goes into the Temple.

The Rapture happens before the start of Daniels 70th Week. That is obvious to all but a few. That's the way life rolls, sometimes people just cant grasp things that some see as clear. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

34 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture happens before the start of Daniels 70th Week. That is obvious to all but a few. That's the way life rolls, sometimes people just cant grasp things that some see as clear. 

That goes against several linear, end-time, prophetic narratives.

Your final thought?  Well, that cuts both ways RM.  And ANYTIME someone tells me something is "clear" ~ I know it is anything BUT "clear" and really, it is only their conclusion.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

38 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You disagreeing with me doesn't change the facts. 

The problem for you is that what you have presented is a spin on Scripture and not facts.

You can own your opinion and form it anyway you like, but you don't get to have your own "facts" (Patrick Moynihan).

[Revelation Man]

6 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

That goes against several linear, end-time, prophetic narratives.

Your final thought?  Well, that cuts both ways RM.  And ANYTIME someone tells me something is "clear" ~ I know it is anything BUT "clear" and really, it is only their conclusion.

Not at all, some people get the wrong info to start with, and just can not ever get rid of that understanding. I never marry myself to an idea until God reveals the truth to me. I read much about Babylon for 30 years, I was just like everyone else, I had heard many ideas, many different ideas, seemed everyone believed different, I heard them all, and I understood where people were coming from.  I even had my own ideas. But here is the gist. Until God confirms something, and you know it in your KNOWER, then you do not know the truth 100 percent. That's just a fact. I do not MARRY MY UNDERSTANDINGS or anyone else's ideas. Six months ago I wrote a blog, and I said I thought Babylon was Rome as a tiny part of my blog. Within the last 6 months, God has revealed to me who Babylon is and who the Harlot is and they are two separate entities. And I KNOW IT in my KNOWER. I can't explain, I just know when the Holy Spirit reveals something to me. I had been studying it 30 years, and NEVER KNEW...........God has His own timing. Why did I not keep my understanding as Rome being Babylon ? Because I understand the difference between Gods revelation and my thoughts/understandings. 

 

If you care to point out the narratives, I have been through them all many times with others, about 90 percent of the time I just get the same ole NOOOO........ even when I present the facts, it is tiresome sometimes, but a worthy servant can't grow weary.  But if you care to point them out I can show you why they are just not factual. 

Why shouldn't it be clear ? The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us wrong, unless we do not let go of our own understandings. Pride sometimes will block us from receiving truth, believe me, I have been there way back yonder, but if we let go of our understandings, God will show us His truths in His timing. 

I wasn't trying to sound snide, maybe it came off that way, I am just a to the point type of person. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

33 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I never marry myself to an idea until God reveals the truth to me.

This is another warning sign for me, when someone thinks they have had God, or the Holy Spirit "speak" to them, or when they think the "truth" has been revealed by the Holy Spirit or God to them.

I saw this sign in a Church:
Don't believe everything you think.

That is good, solid advice, and I will add: never ever delude yourself that you're so special that God speaks the truth to you personally, especially when it is at odds with Scripture or what He did tell the Prophets, or in the case of the Apostles and Paul, what He told them personally.