QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Salty]

3 hours ago, heyvavhey said:

 

Right, but you guys were all insulting me for many pages and days before I responded in kind. I'd like to keep this civil, yet eventually I will push back. 

For the record, I was also reprimanded and given a point. 

 

Well, your fallout with inChrist fell upon me too when I didn't deserve it, because I didn't start any personal attacks against you.

[heyvavhey]

 

 

Was Nathaniel a Jew? Yeshua called him an Israelite, so either some of them returned, or Jews equal Israelites. Take your pic because either one blows a hole in your theory. 

 

Here is a woman from the tribes you say didn't return serving in the Temple

Luke 2:35-37Tree of Life Version (TLV)

36 Now Anna, a daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher, was a prophetess. She was well advanced in age, having lived with a husband only[a] seven years 37 and then as a widow until age eighty-four. She never left the Temple, serving night and day with fasting and prayers.

 

 

Here is Paul, from Benjamin in Judea, calling himself an Israelite.

Roman 11: 1 - Paul says:  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2nd Cor 11:22 -  22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the descendants of Abraham? So am I.

 

Here is James speaking to the TWELVE TRIBES of the diaspora (not just 10 "lost" ones)

James 1:1 - Jacob, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, To the twelve tribes in the Diaspora: Shalom!

 

 

 

Jew - Israelite - the circumcision - diaspora - hebrews

All used interchangeably in the Newer Covenant scriptures. No distinction between them is mentioned after the return from captivity. 

And either this is true or Yeshua failed miserably in going only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, because they weren't in Israel (according to your theory) and He didn't leave.

He spoke to Jews (also known as Israelites) almost exclusively. Taking your theory to it's logical end, you're saying that He didn't come for the Jews, though that is who He spoke to most of the time, and that is who spread the gospel to the diaspora and the gentiles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by heyvavhey

[heyvavhey]

44 minutes ago, Salty said:

 

The word Israelite applied only to those born of one of the tribes of Israel.

 

 

Note that Paul, from the Tribe of Benjamin in Judah, calls himself an Israelite at least twice in the Newer Covenant scriptures.

 

 

Quote

Yet the word Jew can apply to anyone who converts to Judaism (Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew simply because he converted to Judaism). But originally, the word Jew (from Judah) only applied to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah", including the foreigners that lived in the land since they were required to follow the worship of The God of Israel at Jerusalem.

 

The word translated as "Jew" into english bibles has several definitions, depending on the context of usage.

 

It "can" mean:

 

1. The leaders of the nation

2. ALL who are descendants of Jacob

3. Anyone (jew or gentile) living in the southern kingdom before the Assyrian captivity could be called Judean. 

4. Someone who converts to Judaism (which did not begin until 90AD in Yavneh)

 

I'm sure there are more possible definitions, but this should make it clear that "Jew" is a word that has a broader definition than just 3 tribes of Jacob in the south before 587 BC

 

[Salty]

28 minutes ago, heyvavhey said:

 

 

Was Nathaniel a Jew? Yeshua called him an Israelite, so either some of them returned, or Jews equal Israelites. Take your pic because either one blows a hole in your theory. 

 

Here is a woman from the tribes you say didn't return serving in the Temple

Luke 2:35-37Tree of Life Version (TLV)

36 Now Anna, a daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher, was a prophetess. She was well advanced in age, having lived with a husband only[a] seven years 37 and then as a widow until age eighty-four. She never left the Temple, serving night and day with fasting and prayers.

 

 

Here is Paul, from Benjamin in Judea, calling himself an Israelite.

Roman 11: 1 - Paul says:  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2nd Cor 11:22 -  22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the descendants of Abraham? So am I.

 

Here is James speaking to the TWELVE TRIBES of the diaspora (not just 10 "lost" ones)

James 1:1 - Jacob, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, To the twelve tribes in the Diaspora: Shalom!

 

Jew - Israelite - the circumcision - diaspora - hebrews

All used interchangeably in the Newer Covenant scriptures. No distinction between them is mentioned after the return from captivity. 

And either this is true or Yeshua failed miserably in going only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, because they weren't in Israel (according to your theory) and He didn't leave.

He spoke to Jews (also known as Israelites) almost exclusively. Taking your theory to it's logical end, you're saying that He didn't come for the Jews, though that is who He spoke to most of the time, and that is who spread the gospel to the diaspora and the gentiles.

 

Like I've said before, some just are not studied on this matter of God splitting old Israel into two separate kingdoms with the ten tribes in a totally separate kingdom in the northern lands:

2 Chron 11:13-17
13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

This verse about the Levites leaving the northern ten tribes and going south to join with Judah was because of what Jeroboam, king of Israel (northern kingdom) did with setting up false calf idol worship at Bethel and Dan. This is when the majority of the tribe of Levi became joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to form the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Judea/Jerusalem.

 

16  And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

Some small remnants of the ten tribes who refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship instead chose to go down to Judea and side with Rehoboam which strengthened his "kingdom of Judah" (I made that big enough so you could see it).

That... is where later mention of Israelites from the ten tribes, like Anna from the tribe of Asher in the Book of Luke, etc., comes from, i.e., those small remnants of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship.

I had already shown this Scripture evidence once here in this thread.

 

[Salty]

41 minutes ago, heyvavhey said:

 

Jew - Israelite - the circumcision - diaspora - hebrews

All used interchangeably in the Newer Covenant scriptures. No distinction between them is mentioned after the return from captivity. 

And either this is true or Yeshua failed miserably in going only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, because they weren't in Israel (according to your theory) and He didn't leave.

He spoke to Jews (also known as Israelites) almost exclusively. Taking your theory to it's logical end, you're saying that He didn't come for the Jews, though that is who He spoke to most of the time, and that is who spread the gospel to the diaspora and the gentiles.

 

Kind of irrelevant, since by the time of Jesus' 1st coming the high priest wasn't even an Israelite born of any tribe of Israel, nor was king Herod, and the Kenites from the lands of Canaan were the scribes, and many of the Jews of the "kingdom of Judah" who went captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar had taken wives of the Canaanites:

Ezra 9:1-4
9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, "The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass."

3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.

4 Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.
KJV

 

Poor Ezra; I can imagine how he felt when he was told how many of the people had taken wives of those Canaanites during the Babylon captivity.

And those Canaanites were the leftovers that Israel was not able to destroy:

1 Kings 9:20-21
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,

21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
KJV

Even Solomon didn't get rid of those Canaanites living among Israel. God warned Israel against marriage with them because of their pagan ways.

Since the very last verse of Zechariah 14 shows only in the future Millennium will the Canaanites be booted out of the House of The LORD shows they crept into Israel's priesthood. The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah called those "Nethinims" which means those given to temple service. It means they began taking over Levitical priestly duties. Ezra 2 shows these foreigners that crept into the priesthood were cast out, but the last Zech.14 verse shows they crept back in at some later point.

So like I said, after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of what Solomon did, and scattered the ten northern tribes first by the kings of Assyria for idol worship, and then later scattered the Jews of the southern three tribed kingdom of Judah to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar for doing false worship also, God put His people of Israel out of His sight in those times. But to the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" He gave a bill of divorce (Jer.3) which He did NOT do to the "house of Judah" (Jews).

So like I said, the naming conventions didn't have the same original meaning by the time of Christ's 1st coming, so what you're saying is irrelevant.

 

[Salty]

39 minutes ago, heyvavhey said:

 

Note that Paul, from the Tribe of Benjamin in Judah, calls himself an Israelite at least twice in the Newer Covenant scriptures.

Of course Apostle Paul was BOTH, a Jew and an Israelite. He was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

Anyone born of any tribe of Israel is an Israelite by birth, simple.

But not everyone born of Israel was a Jew. That title Jew is what only those of the southern kingdom of Judah began calling theirselves.

The ten northern tribe kingdom did not use that title.

 

According to the Jewish historian Josephus about Nehemiah:

"Now when he was come to Babylon, and had taken with him many of his countreymen, who voluntarily followed him, he came to Jerusalem in the twenty fifth year of the reign of Xerxes. And when he had shewn the epistles to God, (16) he gave them to Adeus, and to the other governours. He also called together all the people to Jerusalem; and stood in the midst of the temple, and made the following speech to them. “You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the King to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you therefore, who well know the ill will our neighbouring nations bear to us, and that when once they once are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God; as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day; but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.” When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities; as every ones ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation." (Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter 5, Section 7)

 

39 minutes ago, heyvavhey said:

 

The word translated as "Jew" into english bibles has several definitions, depending on the context of usage.

 

It "can" mean:

 

1. The leaders of the nation

2. ALL who are descendants of Jacob

3. Anyone (jew or gentile) living in the southern kingdom before the Assyrian captivity could be called Judean. 

4. Someone who converts to Judaism (which did not begin until 90AD in Yavneh)

 

I'm sure there are more possible definitions, but this should make it clear that "Jew" is a word that has a broader definition than just 3 tribes of Jacob in the south before 587 BC

 

The first appearance of the title of "Jew" in the KJV Bible is in Esther 2, but it's actually the name Judah in the Hebrew. The KJV translators added the word Jew throughout their translation. No matter how the word is derived, it's always pointing back to the name Judah and thus the tribe Judah.

But there were more Israelite tribes than just Judah. The tribe of Benjamin were Jews as we know from Apostle Paul since he said he was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin. So HOW... did the tribe of Benjamin become Jews, since that title originates from the sole tribe of Judah?....

It's because of the split of the old kingdom of Israel into TWO SEPARATE KINGDOMS. The tribe of Benjamin sided with Judah at Judea/Jerusalem, and that's how... the tribe of Benjamin also took that title of Jew.

 

This is really simple, all one need do is read:

1 Kings 12:14-21
14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from the LORD, that He might perform His saying, which the LORD spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Jeroboam of Ephraim, (whom God had promised through His prophet Ahijah to give ten tribes to per 1 Kings 11), and other reps from the northern ten tribes sought Rehoboam to ease the burden his father king Solomon had put upon them, and verse 14 was Rehoboam's response.

 

16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, "What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents."

17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem.

19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.

That is when the ten tribes in the north literally split from the reign of the house of David through Solomon's son Rehoboam.

And it also points to the small remnants of the ten northern tribes that instead went south and joined with Rehoboam king of Judah. The name Israel in these verses is referring ONLY to the northern ten tribes. This is when the separate kings of the two kingdoms would be referred to in God's Word as the "king of Judah" (southern kingdom) vs. the "king of Israel" (northern kingdom).

 

20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
KJV

When Jeroboam returned, the northern congregation made him king over "all Israel", with only the tribe of Judah following the house of David at that point. Why "all Israel"? Because the northern ten tribes made up the majority... of the peoples of Israel, and per earlier prophecy God gave to Ephraim that his seed was to become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48).

Then Rehoboam, son of Solomon and of the house of David at Jerusalem, assembled the tribe of Benjamin to go to war against the northern ten tribes and Jeroboam, to try and bring the kingdom back together.

But God told him no:

1 Kings 12:22-24
22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,

24 Thus saith the LORD, "Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from Me." They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.
KJV

Right there God is calling the southern kingdom under Rehoboam king of Judah by the title of "house of Judah and Benjamin" to show which tribes made up the southern kingdom. That included that "remnant of the people" which left the northern tribes and sided with Rehoboam at Jerusalem. It certainly did NOT... mean the majority of the ten northern tribes, otherwise how would they have even become... a separate northern kingdom?

So stubbornness against these Scripture evidences of the two houses is simply futile.

 

[Sister]

5 hours ago, Salty said:

The point of that verse about the infant is that of being 100 years old and still an infant. It's an expression, because an infant doesn't stay an infant for 100 years, so it's simply an 'expression' for longevity, and not literal.

Like I've already shown, in the world to come, the only type of death remaining will be the "second death", which is not a death of the flesh, but a death of the spirit with soul into the "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years.

When Jesus said this He meant it:

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

That is meant regarding the resurrection body being like the angelic body in Heaven.

Hi Salty

The "Saints" will not be given in marriage, but are as the angels of God.

We cannot throw the Saints of the first resurrection with the remnants of Israel, and left over gentiles into one basket.  Only those who served the Lamb of God are in the first resurrection, and will be raised to spirit like Christ was.  The saints will rule with Christ, over Israel and the gentiles during the millennium.

 Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Daniel 7:27   And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

 Luke 20:34   And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

Only the saints of the resurrection cannot die anymore, nor are given to marriage.

[JohnD]

On 11/17/2016 at 2:16 PM, WailingWall said:

After being changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air. Where do we go from there? All the Rapturist claim we are going to heaven. Thing is, i cant find where that is actually written. Can anyone point out the scripture that makes that claim

The rapture will take place in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 12:11-12) day 1335 of the 2520 days of that seven-year period. This will be a disembodied event in which we will ascend to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus until the Jews about to be exterminated at Armageddon cry out for him as a last ditch effort to survive (which is what the Great Tribulation is all about). The Jesus (the only resurrected man) will come to earth. We who have died or are raptured will be with him as disembodied spirits coming in the clouds and the bodies of believers will rise upon Christ's return to be reunited with our spirits. Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives which will split in two violently causing seismic waves as far north as Megiddo where the great valley there filled with a 200 million man army staged there will be crushed by the two mountains colliding. 

What happens next, I personally have not studied enough to decide what I believe (about a thousand year reign) but at some point the present heavens and earth will pass away an in their place a new heaven and new earth (or new heaven-earth) will descend. Our bodies are raised imperishable either way. If I were to speculate, I would say we are living in the millennial age (another name for the Church age / age of Grace) as the Greek in Revelation 20 is plural "thousands" years. When Jesus returns the threat to Israel will be swiftly vanquished and the Jewish people will see their Messiah as he is for the first time. The general resurrection will occur, every knew will bow and every tongue will confess that Yeshua HaMoshiach YHVH to the glory of the Father. The doomed will be cast into hell (no literal trials with begging and pleading) and believers will be with God forever in the new heaven-earth that will immediately come. 

If I were to guess...

   

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

The rapture will take place in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel

That's only according to some who believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture.  The preponderance of evidence is for a pre-tribulation Rapture.

[RustyAngeL]

On 11/17/2016 at 9:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, missmuffet.

Do I detect a yellow streak, OR are you too ingrained with your own little theological point of view that you're saying, "Don't confuse me with the facts"?

I don't think insulting someone is going to get the point your trying to make across.