Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, Zach said:

I've two dogs, they're both border collies, both black and white and both dogs, haha, but there not the same dog. I've also a black and white cat, but its not my dog. Just because scripture uses the same titles for different people doesn't make them the same person.

God doesn't share HIS glory as God, but he gives glory to men.

But God is different.  He is One God, but He is not one person, so your ridiculous dog analogy doesn't really meaning anything.   These are not just titles.   Jesus not only claimed to be God, but Jesus acted like God and did things that only God can do and made claims about Himself that only God can make.

God may honor His servants, but He does not allow them to share in His glory and so God does not share His titles or attributes with anyone.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, inchrist said:

Absolutely ridicules logic....Christ inherites as he is the first born....of cause God is going to share his glory

Because Jesus is God.  If God the Father shares His glory with Jesus it is because Jesus is God

[Zach]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Absolutely ridicules logic....Christ inherites as he is the first born....of cause God is going to share his glory

When Christ sits on the throne at God's right hand, yeah, I'd say there's some glory sharing going on.

[Zach]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

but Jesus acted like God and did things that only God can do

This is because Jesus is the agent (shaliah) of God.

"According to the Jewish understanding of agency, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion:

Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. [2]"

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Following the Mosaic Law - Gods law is not an attempt by Gentiles to live like Jews....its an attempt by Gentiles to live biblically.

And if Gentiles want to keep the Sabbath and stay kosher they are free to do so.  They are NOT free to teach others that they MUST live that way as well.

 

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Because according to you keeping these mosaic laws is living like Jews. Which I keep telling you following the Mosaic Law does not make you Jewish nor does it make you live like a Jew....it makes you live biblically.

I never said it made anyone Jewish, but since Sabbath, kosher and festivals are integral and central to Jewish culture and since Judaizers, cultists, and other false teachers define "Torah observance" by keeping the Sabbath and staying kosher, then yes, it is about living like Jews.

 

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And here is the findamental flaw...This ridiculous notion that the OT Law was only for Israel, the contract was only between God and Israel..... This claim is completely false.

No, what I said was that the Sabbath and the dietary laws and festivals were given only to Israel.  The fact that you to accuse me claiming that the entire Torah was only given to Israel demonstrates a shallow view of the law, but proves that you don't really read what I say.   You are responding to what you are assigning to me.

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The mosaic law is not a tribal morality.

I never said it was.

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Why were the Gentiles which dwelt in the land of Palestine prior to Israel's conquest of the land, were under the wrath and curse of God? If the law was only for the Israelites? If the Israelites were the only ones who God entered into contract with...then by contractual law....Israel is the only nation to be punished by disobedience to the Law and the conditions of punishment is only under contract between Israel and God.....Therefore God has no contractual bases to place Palestine prior to Israels conquest to be under wrath and curse to the Law....as they were never under the Law.

Why the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah if the law was only for Israel?

Were the Sodomites not condemned for behaving contrary to the LAW -- God's law? 

Again, the fundamental flaw in your argument is based on your misquotation of me and the false values you assign to me.  I didn't say the whole law was only given to Israel and I never said that were was no moral code or "law" given prior to Moses.    You and Zach keep trying to have a debate over things I didn't say.

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Why does King David feel the need to preach Gods Laws to Kings? God never entered into contract with other nations?

 

Psalm 119:46 

 

I will speak of your statutes before kings and will not be put to shame,

 

Why then would Davids declaration that God chastens the nations out of His law if it was never applicable to Gentiles

 

Psalm 94:10-12New International Version (NIV)

10 Does he who disciplines nations not punish?
    Does he who teaches mankind lack knowledge?
11 The Lord knows all human plans;
    he knows that they are futile.

12 Blessed is the one you discipline, Lord,
    the one you teach from your law;

 

As we are to believe God only entered into a contract with Israel....any contractual breaking is to be punished to Israel only...why does David call God to punish nations out of the Law? The subjugation to the Law was only for Israel not to other nations and these nations could not be held responsible to any part of the Mosaic Law?

 

Why does scripture call  Gentile nations to turn unto, hear and submit to God's law as it would be proclaimed from Jerusalem to all the world. Isaiah 2:2-3

 

Why did Amos condemned the Gentile nations which surrounded Judah (Amos 1:3-2:3) -- Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab. 

 

In each case the Gentiles were condemned for brutality and cruelty (which transgresses God's law by indulging in the malice which the law of Moses forbids at, e.g., Leviticus 19:14, 17:18; Deuteronomy 27:18). 

 

Amos condemned the Gentiles (1:6) for engaging in slave trafficking, which is forbidden in the law of Moses (Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7). 

 

The law of Moses grants special protections to pregnant women (e.g., Exodus 21:22-23), yet the Gentiles violate this moral principle by ripping up pregnant women, for which they came under prophetic condemnation (Amos 1:13). 

 

Amos condemned Gentiles for the defining of a corpse, disobeying the teaching of the Mosaic law (Deuteronomy 21:23).

 

God then has no right to condemn any of these nations according to the Mosiac law....as we are lead to believe God only entered into a contract with Israel....these gentile nations could not violate any part of the Law as they are not a party to it and could not be subjugated to its punishement.

 

Why would God want the mosaic Law to be  considered wisdom in the eyes of gentiles   Deuteronomy 4:6-8 if God only intended to be in contractual agreement between Israel only?

 

Why would God declare his Law, His justice to be a light to the world? If Gods intentions was to solely be in contract with Israel?

 

Why would Nahum condemn Nineveh of wickedness of witchcraft which the Mosaic Law condemns Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 19:21; 20:6,27

 

Remember we are to believe that God only entered into a contract with Israel.... why is Israel condemning other nations according to the Law who have no party to the Law?

 

Sorry but scripture turns up one after another where Gentiles are held accountable to the obligations of the Mosaic law.

 

No, not really.   God is punishing them out of His law, not because they didn't keep the Sabbath, not because they were not kosher.   He punished the nations that mistreated Israel.   The problem is that you're moving the goal posts.   On the one hand, your arguing that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath day and stay kosher by God, but then to prove that Gentiles are under the law, you post Scriptures about God's judgment of the nations because of how they mistreat Israel and that God is satisfying His justice in doing so in accordance to His law.  

Nothing in any those passages inidicated that they were given the Law of Moses and were being punished for not keeping the law of Moses.   That's what you need to prove.   You need to prove that the ancient nations were given the Torah of Moses just like Israel and were punished for not keeping it.   You can't. 

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How could it as you claim they never regulated the Churches....how could they form the bare essentials for the churches if theu never regulated it in the first place.....those four essentials would be a regulation now wouldnt it?

There was non centralized authority for all of the churches.  That was not an attempt regulate them.  It simply formed the basis for the bare essentials of table fellowship with Jews. 

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However the point I would like to address is those four essentials were not the be all end all of the Mosiac Law for Gentiles.

Of course they are not.

 

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Again this is placing yourself in a postion superior to other christians and deciding who you think can discuss scripture and have rights to interpret it.

Those who teach that Jesus is not God are not Christians.  So I am not setting myself up as superior to other Christians.

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Any doctrine that changes from Son of God to God the Son or from the Image of God to Being God himself.....has no bearing on salvation....both parties accept Christ  both Parties accept the atonement for sin, both parties believe Christ is the true messiah....both parties acknowledge Christ as King and Lord is to return. 

False on all counts.  Son of God = God.   No one is changing Jesus from the Son of God to being God.  He has always been God, from the dateless eternal past.  He was God before the incarnation; He  is God now and He will continue being God into the eternal future.   

And it has a direct bearing on salvation, as a mere man cannot atone for the sins of humanity.  

Both parties are not equivalent in what they believe.  Jesus is the Messiah and King of Kings and Lord because of His deity.   If Jesus is not God, He is none of those things.

One party believes that Jesus is just a man.   The Christian party believes that Jesus is God and Lord (Adonai). 

[Zach]

1 minute ago, inchrist said:

Its always good to meet christians with similar understandings...I've enjoyed your responses

Same here, it can get lonely at times, especially being labeled as a heretic, legalist, judaizer, ignorant of scripture, teaching another gospel, teaching a false gospel, being reported to Admin, having posts dedicated to warning people not to listen. Then I read what Yeshua and his Talmudim went through, not only am I in good company but have it easy! 

Shalom

[FresnoJoe]

On 12/31/2016 at 11:02 AM, Zach said:

leave you with the challenge to understand Scripture in the light of Yeshua's words in his culture....
leaving Paul 100% out of it.... 

your entire view of Scripture is based on a 400 year after the fact, Roman/Hellenized Gentile interpretation of Paul's writings....
(a man who never met or quoted Yeshua) rather than Yeshua himself....

In other words you follow a religion about a Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus....
So who do "really" you follow....
Jesus or a reinvented Paul....

Beloved, Have You Met Jesus, The One Who Called Rabbi Saul

"Brothers and fathers, listen as I now present my case to you."

When the mob heard him speak to them in Hebrew, they became even more quiet. Then Paul continued,

"I'm a Jew. I was born and raised in the city of Tarsus in Cilicia and received my education from Gamaliel here in Jerusalem. My education was in the strict rules handed down by our ancestors. I was as devoted to God as all of you are today. I persecuted people who followed the way [of Christ]: I tied up men and women and put them into prison until they were executed. The chief priest and the entire council of our leaders can prove that I did this. In fact, they even gave me letters to take to the Jewish community in the city of Damascus. I was going there to tie up believers and bring them back to Jerusalem to punish them.

"But as I was on my way and approaching the city of Damascus about noon, a bright light from heaven suddenly flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice asking me, 'Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?' "I answered, 'Who are you, sir?' "The person told me, 'I'm Jesus from Nazareth, the one you're persecuting.' "The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. 10"Then I asked, 'What do you want me to do, Lord?' "The Lord told me, 'Get up! Go into the city of Damascus, and you'll be told everything I've arranged for you to do.' "I was blind because the light had been so bright. So the men who were with me led me into the city of Damascus. Acts 22:1-11

Do You Know The Lawgiver, The Man From Galilee

Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12 (New International Version)

Have You Heard Of His Divine Holy Law

Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. Romans 3:19-28 (New Living Translation)

Really, Who Will You Believe

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. Romans 3:16-17 (English Standard Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Here God shares his glory....
does that make me God now....

Here God

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:1-5 (New International Version)

Lives Right Inside Of Me

“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began!

“O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.” John 17:20-26 (New Living Translation)

Does That Now Make Me The LORD Jesus Christ

"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, Zach said:

Same here, it can get lonely at times, especially being labeled as a heretic, legalist, judaizer, ignorant of scripture, teaching another gospel, teaching a false gospel, being reported to Admin, having posts dedicated to warning people not to listen. Then I read what Yeshua and his Talmudim went through, not only am I in good company but have it easy! 

Shalom

Simply

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (New Heart English Bible)

Jesus

Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

At this point in time you have been so schooled already in scripture

2 Peter 1:4English Standard Version (ESV)

⁴ by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

 

“The Lord will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you” (Isaiah 60:2). 

“I have given them the glory that you gave me” (Jesus, John 17:22).

 "So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God" (Romans 5:2).

"God did this by showing how glorious he is when he has pity on the people he has chosen to share in his glory" (Romans 9:23).

"So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image" (2 Corinthians 3:18).

"...that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 2:14). 

"You are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you" (1 Peter 4:14).

Here God shares his glory does that make me God now?

No, this is just more mishandling of the Bible.   Sharing IN His glory is not the same as sharing His glory.   Two different things.   Sharing in God's glory means that we experience the results or benefits of His glory, not that we are glorified as He is.  

He is glorified in us, but we are not sharing His glory.  That would mean that we are on equal par with God.  So we cannot share His glory. And He makes it clear that He shares His glory with no one.