The Torah tells us Jesus is not the Messiah it prophesies?

[angels4u]

58 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, there is only one to correctly interpret Scripture.   The virgin birth is not a minor.  It evidences Jesus' Deity and it didn't come from a church, but from Scripture.    The OT and NT affirm the virgin birth.  

1

Amen! 

Quote

The OT and NT affirm the virgin birth.  

 

[soonsister]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

No, there is only one to correctly interpret Scripture.   The virgin birth is not a minor.  It evidences Jesus' Deity and it didn't come from a church, but from Scripture.    The OT and NT affirm the virgin birth.  

Very well said. And thank you all who contributed to the defense of the true birth of Christ.

I had asked to share this article with one who messaged me it. However, being this is progressing at this pace and that person is not currently aboard I wanted to share the link to help this discussion continue to move in the direction of scripture. Which is such a relief that it is being that first post article was rather impacting on many of us in the bible study.

https://www.gty.org/resources/print/blog/B111223https://www.gty.org/resources/print/blog/B111223

The Virgin Birth and Prophecy

Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 7:14; Jeremiah 31:22; Matthew 1:22–23

by John MacArthur

[Neighbor]

Having read through the trail of posts, may I comment on  just a couple of thoughts that have traveled through my mind? Why thanks,  for the tolerance, may I not be a distraction.

And that is what I wish to emphasize- There are Ministers of Distraction. They are used  of what is evil to distract  saints of Christ Jesus from the word of God onto  little rabbit runs into warrens of darkness, where they then get tangled into trying to discern that which is not from God rather than  learning what is of God.

One never learns much studying counterfeits, if they do not first  know the real with authority. So one should learn the word  for good use and regarding counterfeits only whom and what to avoid entirely. That word  from God shares with us all the following which concludes with a great powerful caution.

From 2 John 10: 4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. 5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Being Torah  compliant (of Torah only) happens to be a favorite vehicle of some ministers of distraction! For therein  they get to present themselves as somehow being of a more learned and higher planed authority then  their  lower brethren the commoner Jews, who they state are  deceived by priests and rabbis, that they also reject.

Such are some, if not all, Kariate Jews by definition. But I urge you do not even walk down that path at this time. Stay to the Gospel  of Jesus.  That gospel which is revealed throughout the entirety of the Bible, through  it's history lessons,  lineage declarations, and all the God inspired  scriptures recorded by men, all sufficiently  transliterated for use to learn of the full armor of God and to place that armor into action. 

 I will digress further for two more side notes: 

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, but instead brothers and sisters in the Lord,  our savior Jesus.

And; I remember the declaration made by a Messianic Teacher and pastor that toured churches with many messages about our Lord, geology, history etc. often topics regarding Israel. He was and is still of some small fame and greatly appreciated (by some anyway) to this day. Being a Torah educated Jew, and being born again, he was asked  by a  Christian pastor about to introduce him to a local  congregation of Christians, "what do they call your type so that I may introduce you?". He graciously and with profound confidence and knowledge  simply said; " They used to call us Christians." 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Neighbor

[Zemke]

Hi soonsister,

The Son of David is the Messiah the rabbis are looking for and will be at some point revealed to them. Just as Joseph was not recognized the first time his brothers saw him. Those same brothers who betrayed him into the hands of the gentiles where he was wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and sent to a place of condemnation where two men were with him, one given life and the other death, and after, lifted to a place of exhaultation and all things were put under his command.

The Son of Joseph prophecies are overshadowed by the Son of David prophecies to the point of blindness. The first time Josephs brothers didn't recognize him but the second time he revealed himself to them. Jesus is the Messiah and will come as the King He is and display His authority and every knee will bow.

Prophecy is one of the ways God shows us He is who He says He is. We needn't allow the cherry picking and distorting of prophecy by the blind to rob our peace and joy.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 12/31/2016 at 4:48 PM, soonsister said:

I'm a member of a bible study group that I joined last month. Someone in the group received an email that concerned them and I must admit in reading it, this three year baby Christian was heart broken.
Can anyone help explain how the Torah's description of the Messiah that does not match the history of Jesus still allows for Jesus to be Messiah?

The Jews & the Messiah
http://www.northforest.org/BibleTopics/JewsMessiah.html

I hope that's allowed to post so you can understand the article that broke my heart. And caused me to seek a forum that would be able to help me. Thank you for any and all assistance and sincere replies.
 

Shalom, soonsister.

Jews today are not being honest with their own history. It has ALWAYS been known by the Rabbis that the prophecies about the ultimate Messiah of G-D fall into two categories: prophecies about the Mashiyach ben-Yowceef (Messiah son of Joseph, the Suffering and Dying Messiah) and prophecies about the Mashiyach ben-David (Messiah son of David, the Conquering and Reigning Messiah).

Mashiyach ben-David is who the Jews expect today, and indeed, He is COMING SOON!

What the Jews of today are CHOOSING to ignore is the body of prophecies that tell about a suffering and dying Messiah, Mashiyach ben-Yowceef, Messiah son of Joseph, and that's "Joseph" as in the son of Israel (Jacob) who was sold as a slave into Egypt and spent time in an Egyptian jail because he was falsely accused by Potifer's wife.

They choose to deny that Isaiah 53 is a Messianic passage, and yet, their ancestors recognized it as such!

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who believes our report?
To whom is the arm of Adonai revealed?
2 For before him he grew up like a young plant,
like a root out of dry ground.
He was not well-formed or especially handsome;
we saw him, but his appearance did not attract us.
3 People despised and avoided him,
a man of pains, well acquainted with illness.
Like someone from whom people turn their faces,
he was despised; we did not value him.

4 In fact, it was our diseases he bore,
our pains from which he suffered;
yet we regarded him as punished,
stricken and afflicted by God.
5 But he was wounded because of our crimes,
crushed because of our sins;
the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him,
and by his bruises we are healed. 

6 We all, like sheep, went astray;
we turned, each one, to his own way;
yet Adonai laid on him
the guilt of all of us. 

7 Though mistreated, he was submissive —
he did not open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to be slaughtered,
like a sheep silent before its shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 After forcible arrest and sentencing,
he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
9 He was given a grave among the wicked;
in his death he was with a rich man.

Although he had done no violence
and had said nothing deceptive,
10 yet it pleased Adonai to crush him with illness,
to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering.
If he does, he will see his offspring;
and he will prolong his days;
and at his hand Adonai’s desire
will be accomplished.
11 After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction.
“By his knowing [pain and sacrifice],
my righteous servant makes many righteous;
it is for their sins that he suffers.
12 Therefore I will assign him a share with the great,
he will divide the spoil with the mighty,
for having exposed himself to death
and being counted among the sinners,
while actually bearing the sin of many
and interceding for the offenders.” 
CJB

This is also true about Psalm 22!

Psalm 22:1-32
1(0) For the leader. Set to “Sunrise.” A psalm of David: 

2(1) My God! My God!
Why have you abandoned me?
Why so far from helping me,
so far from my anguished cries? 

3(2) My God, by day I call to you,
but you don’t answer;
likewise at night,
but I get no relief.
4(3) Nevertheless, you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Isra’el.
5(4) In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted, and you rescued them.
6(5) They cried to you and escaped;
they trusted in you and were not disappointed. 

7(6) But I am a worm, not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8(7) All who see me jeer at me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
9(8) “He committed himself to Adonai,
so let him rescue him!
Let him set him free
if he takes such delight in him!” 

10(9) But you are the one who took me from the womb,
you made me trust when I was on my mother’s breasts.
11(10) Since my birth I’ve been thrown on you;
you are my God from my mother’s womb.
12(11) Don’t stay far from me, for trouble is near;
and there is no one to help.
13(12) Many bulls surround me,
wild bulls of Bashan close in on me.
14(13) They open their mouths wide against me,
like ravening, roaring lions.
15(14) I am poured out like water;
all my bones are out of joint;
my heart has become like wax —
it melts inside me;
16(15) my mouth is as dry as a fragment of a pot,
my tongue sticks to my palate;
you lay me down in the dust of death.
17(16) Dogs are all around me,
a pack of villains closes in on me
like a lion [at] my hands and feet. 

18(17) I can count every one of my bones,
while they gaze at me and gloat.
19(18) They divide my garments among themselves;
for my clothing they throw dice. 

20(19) But you, Adonai, don’t stay far away!
My strength, come quickly to help me!
21(20) Rescue me from the sword,
my life from the power of the dogs.
22(21) Save me from the lion’s mouth!

You have answered me from the wild bulls’ horns.
23(22) I will proclaim your name to my kinsmen;
right there in the assembly I will praise you:
24(23) “You who fear Adonai, praise him!
All descendants of Ya‘akov, glorify him!
All descendants of Isra’el, stand in awe of him!
25(24) For he has not despised or abhorred
the poverty of the poor;
he did not hide his face from him
but listened to his cry.” 

26(25) Because of you
I give praise in the great assembly;
I will fulfill my vows
in the sight of those who fear him.
27(26) The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek Adonai will praise him;
Your hearts will enjoy life forever.
28(27) All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to Adonai;
all the clans of the nations
will worship in your presence.
29(28) For the kingdom belongs to Adonai,
and he rules the nations. 

30(29) All who prosper on the earth
will eat and worship;
all who go down to the dust
will kneel before him,
including him who can’t keep himself alive.
31(30) A descendant will serve him;
the next generation will be told of Adonai.
32(31) They will come and proclaim
his righteousness
to a people yet unborn,
that he is the one who did it. 
CJB

They try all sorts of mental gymnastics to say that these passages are not about the Messiah, but THEIR OWN HISTORY says otherwise!

The debate ranged from some Rabbis believing there would be TWO such Messiahs to a possibility that ONE Messiah could somehow fulfill both sets of passages.

This is what Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was asking Yeshua` the Messiah through his disciples while he was in prison:

Matthew 11:2-15
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ (the Messiah), he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear (Isa. 35:5-6), the dead are raised up (Isa. 26:19), and the poor have the gospel preached to them (Isa. 61:1).
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee (Malachi 3:1).
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This was NOT a "lapse of faith" in John, as some have suggested. He was merely asking "Is there one Messiah, or are there two?" "Are you the same as the Messiah that shall come, or are we to look for another, different Messiah?"

Yeshua`s answer was to quote passages that are from the prophecies about Messiah son of David, reassuring John that He was indeed the Messiah to come. There would only be ONE Messiah with two advents - two comings.

The Torah's description of the Messiah is about Messiah son of David. However, when Yeshua` came in the first century A.D, He was coming as Messiah son of Joseph - the suffering and dying Messiah, first.

Intelligent and well-informed Rabbis, if they are being honest with you, will admit that Rabbis down through the centuries knew about these prophecies, as well.

[soonsister]

Thank you Roy for sharing that. It means more than I can express.

At the risk of sounding dumb, where does the Davidic line for the reigning Messiah come from with Jesus? Are there any texts that speak of Mary's line to that end? Or is it a reference as I presume to the great king of the Jews, David? And a recalling of his name imparts the authority and power of the coming second Messiah?

 

Thank you for your continued patience and indulgence with my inquiry.

Blessings, S

[soonsister]

One of my bible study friends subscribes to a publication produced by Christian Research Institute.

She contacted them to ask about the article she was also emailed and their reply arrived in PDF. Which she shared. I have her permission to post it here and I hope it helps with this topic. It certainly helps me. Along with all the kind informed responses I've read here as well. Again, thank you all for sharing your wisdom.

I've added the URL's to this PDF that I copied from their home site at CRI. This makes it easier to read all references if someone is interested.

And Roy? There's a reference there of the "Two Covenant" theory as well. I opened this email after reading your post. God does work to lead his beloved to the truth doesn't he. Praise the Lord of hosts.

CHRISTIAN RESEARCH INSTITUTE
PO Box 8500, Charlotte, NC 28271 Tel: 888-700-0274 / Fax: 704-887-8299 Web: www.equip.org /

January 4, 2017
Dear +++++
Grace to you and peace!
Thanks for including us in your research on Judaism. Whether or not there will be a future mass conversion in the future of Jews embracing Jesus as the long awaited Messiah is debatable.

What is most important in the end, whether Jew or Gentile, is this: When Jesus Christ appears again, the dead shall be raised from the graves. The saints shall be resurrected to eternal life in a new heaven and new hearth and the sinners to eternal condemnation in the lake of fire (John 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:1-58; 2 Cor. 5:9-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-12; cf. Dan. 12:2). Those without Christ will be eternally condemned.
Evangelists are then to call sinners to repent, whether Jew or Gentile, right here and now until the Lord’s second appearance. All Christians in the church have a part to play in fulfilling this Great Commission.

Christianity and Judaism share a connection to the God who has revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets of the Old Testament. The point of departure concerns Jesus of Nazareth. The followers of Jesus were convinced that He was Israel’s long awaited Messiah (i.e. the Christ) foretold by Moses and the prophets. They were Jews who embraced Jesus’ as the Christ. They also believed that Christ had died upon the cross, according to the Scriptures, that He rose again on the third day, and whosoever believed in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. The Christ they believed was the very incarnation of God.
The first Christians were mainly Jews, albeit they were convinced that Yahweh’s plan of redemption opened doors for Gentile inclusion into the one covenant people of God. The decisive event that solidified the separation between the Christian movement and the rest of Judaism was the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in AD 70. Whereas the Jewish followers of Christ came to grips with the end of the temple and animal sacrifices in their understanding of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, being the last sacrifice and fulfillment of the types and shadows of the Old Testament, the Jews who had rejected Christ would have to reconstruct their faith apart from Old Testament temple worship with consecrated Levitical priests and animal sacrifices. It is from the latter group that would emerge modern Judaism.
Modern Judaism is far from monolithic and there three main branches within the faith: Orthodox, Reformed, and Conservative. There is also Kabbalah, which is not itself a sect, but a form of Jewish mysticism.
All people who are saved, whether Jew or Gentile, they are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ are condemned, whether Jew or Gentile. A Jewish person who rejects Jesus Christ is essentially rejecting the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and all the saints and prophets of the Old Testament, along with all the promises of being God’s people. Jewish people without Christ are lost.

 

Please see the following equip.org resources:
Bible Answer Book
CBAB89 – What is Judaism?
CBAB63 – Is the New Testament Anti-Semitic?
CBAB90 – Is Kabbalah consistent with Christianity?
Articles:
DJ431 - Understanding Judaism: How to Share the Gospel with Your Jewish Friends (Richard Robinson)
DA500 - To the Jew First: A Biblical Analysis of the “Two Covenant” Theory of the Atonement (Joseph P. Gudel)
DJ440 - Something Old, Something New: The Messianic Congregational Movement (Bruce J. Lieske)
DJ630 - Jesus is the Messiah: Witnessing to Jews (Ron Rhodes)
JAH030 - Holocaust Apologetics: Undoing the Death of God (Barry Leventhal)
JAJ400 - Answering Jewish Objections to the New Covenant in Christ (Daniel Mann)
JAJ404 - Jews Seek a Deeper Spiritual Life through Buddhism (Douglas LeBlanc)
JAF4323 - Is the Shedding of Blood Necessary for Forgiveness? (Daniel Mann)
JAV342 – Can Christians Celebrate the Passover? (Daniel Mann)
DC040 - What is Kabbalah? (Elliot Miller)
JAK045 - Kabbalah: Getting Back to the Garden (Marcia Montenegro)
JAK046 - Kabbalah in Traditional Jewish Practice (Rabbi Dr. David Friedman)
“The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace” (Num. 6:24-28, ESV)

Sincerely,
Warren Nozaki Research Consultant Christian Research Institute

[Ezra]

11 hours ago, soonsister said:

"Thanks for including us in your research on Judaism. Whether or not there will be a future mass conversion in the future of Jews embracing Jesus as the long awaited Messiah is debatable."     Quoted by soonsister

No, it is not debatable.  It is clearly revealed in Scripture and accompanies the Second Coming of Christ.

That does not mean that Jews living today can simply coast along. Today God sees all sinners as simply sinners, and commands all men everywhere to repent.

[soonsister]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

No, it is not debatable.  It is clearly revealed in Scripture and accompanies the Second Coming of Christ.

That does not mean that Jews living today can simply coast along. Today God sees all sinners as simply sinners, and commands all men everywhere to repent.

I think what they're saying in that article here, " Whether or not there will be a future mass conversion in the future of Jews embracing Jesus as the long awaited Messiah is debatable. " , is that it is uncertain is not whether or not all sinners must repent or else. But rather, whether or not Jews will embrace Jesus as Messiah and repent.

[Ezra]

21 minutes ago, soonsister said:

But rather, whether or not Jews will embrace Jesus as Messiah and repent.

Understood.  But whoever claims that is rejecting what the Bible reveals regarding the Second Coming. They will all mourn and they will all repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.