The Torah tells us Jesus is not the Messiah it prophesies?

[angels4u]

31 minutes ago, soonsister said:

I think what they're saying in that article here, " Whether or not there will be a future mass conversion in the future of Jews embracing Jesus as the long awaited Messiah is debatable. " , is that it is uncertain is not whether or not all sinners must repent or else. But rather, whether or not Jews will embrace Jesus as Messiah and repent.

 

 

It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'" ( Jesus) Romans 14:11

[soonsister]

14 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Understood.  But whoever claims that is rejecting what the Bible reveals regarding the Second Coming. They will all mourn and they will all repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't think you did understand. And I think you're making too much of what CRI's article stated so as to make their information after that first paragraph non-credible.

I would hope in fairness to the effort expended to publish that PDF that you and others would take the time to read it fairly. No one at CRI rejects a thing about the Bible. They're there to deliver the truth of scripture.

The artlcle links are also informative on this topic as well. I'd hope people would give those a fair read as well.

[Zemke]

18 hours ago, Ezra said:

No, it is not debatable.  It is clearly revealed in Scripture and accompanies the Second Coming of Christ.

That does not mean that Jews living today can simply coast along. Today God sees all sinners as simply sinners, and commands all men everywhere to repent.

In a hymnal at church there is a song called"The Day Of Wrath" and it's stated in a way of clear biblical conviction that any escatological theology could agree upon. The CRI article seems to be written in that manner by first stating some future revival of some sort is debatable because , "people debate it" BUT the next paragraph is in the spirit of the song "The Day Of Wrath". And not debatable and in the spirit of one of the main purposes or uses of prophecy which is preached or spoken to convict and bring to repentance sinners just as Peter on the day of Pentecost preached from Joel. That by the way kicked off what would be considered a revival of sorts today.

Theological perspectives are debatable especially how future events pan out and I believe they(CRI) were acknowledging that, but they clearly made a strong and non debatable statement that our King is coming, and that is central.

 

[soonsister]

14 minutes ago, Zemke said:

In a hymnal at church there is a song called"The Day Of Wrath" and it's stated in a way of clear biblical conviction that any escatological theology could agree upon. The CRI article seems to be written in that manner by first stating some future revival of some sort is debatable because , "people debate it" BUT the next paragraph is in the spirit of the song "The Day Of Wrath". And not debatable and in the spirit of one of the main purposes or uses of prophecy which is preached or spoken to convict and bring to repentance sinners just as Peter on the day of Pentecost preached from Joel. That by the way kicked off what would be considered a revival of sorts today.

Theological perspectives are debatable especially how future events pan out and I believe they(CRI) were acknowledging that, but they clearly made a strong and non debatable statement that our King is coming, and that is central.

 

Thank you for that. +1

 

[Retrobyter]

On 1/5/2017 at 10:31 AM, soonsister said:

Thank you Roy for sharing that. It means more than I can express.

At the risk of sounding dumb, where does the Davidic line for the reigning Messiah come from with Jesus? Are there any texts that speak of Mary's line to that end? Or is it a reference as I presume to the great king of the Jews, David? And a recalling of his name imparts the authority and power of the coming second Messiah?

 

Thank you for your continued patience and indulgence with my inquiry.

Blessings, S

Shalom, soonsister.

You're quite welcome. I used to be a school teacher (for a SHORT time), and in my opinion, there's no such thing as a "dumb question." The only "dumb question" is the one that is never asked.

Yowceef's (Joseph's) lineage is found in Matthew 1.
Miryam's (Mary's) lineage is found in Luke 3.

Yowceef's line from David is through Shlomoh (Solomon), which included the line of the kings.
Miryam's line from David is through Natan (Nathan, also one of David's sons).

Jeremiah 36:30-31
30 Therefore Adonai says this about Y’hoyakim king of Y’hudah: “He will have no one to occupy David’s throne; and his dead body will be thrown out to lie in the heat by day and in the frost by night. 31 Moreover, I will punish him, his offspring and his officials for their wickedness; and I will bring on them, the inhabitants of Yerushalayim and the people of Y’hudah all the disaster I have decreed against them, to which they have paid no attention.”’” 
CJB

1 Chron 3:10-24 (Yeshua`s lineage through Yowceef in red)

 

I. (10) Shlomo’s son was Rechav‘am, 

I. A. his son Aviyah, 

I. A. 1. his son Asa, 

I. A. 1. a. his son Y’hoshafat, 

I. A. 1. a. i. (11) his son Yoram, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) his son Achazyah, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) his son Yo’ash, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) (12) his son Amatzyah, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) his son ‘Azaryah, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) his son Yotam, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) 1))) (13) his son Achaz, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) 1))) a)))) his son Hizkiyahu, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) 1))) a)))) 1)))) his son M’nasheh, 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) 1))) a)))) 1)))) a))))) (14) his son Amon and 

I. A. 1. a. i. a) 1) a)) 1)) a))) 1))) a)))) 1)))) a))))) 1))))) his son Yoshiyahu. 

 

II. (15) The sons of Yoshiyahu: 

II. A. Yochanan the firstborn, 

II. B. Y’hoyakim the second, 

II. C. Tzedekyah the third, and 

II. D. Shalum the fourth. 

 

III. (16) The sons of Y’hoyakim: 

III. A. Y’khonyah his son, and 

III. B. Tzedekyah his son. 

 

IV. (17) The sons of Y’khonyah, also called Asir: 

IV. A. Sh’alti’el his son; 

IV. B. (18) also Malkiram, 

IV. C. P’dayah, 

IV. D. Shen’atzar, 

IV. E. Y’kamyah, 

IV. F. Hoshama and 

IV. G. N’davyah. 

 

V. (19) The sons of P’dayah: 

V. A. Z’rubavel and 

V. B. Shim‘i. 

 

VI. The children of Z’rubavel: 

VI. A. Meshulam, 

VI. B. Hananyah and 

VI. C. Shlomit their sister; (20) also 

VI. D. Hashuvah, 

VI. E. Ohel, 

VI. F. Berekhyah, 

VI. G. Hasadyah and 

VI. H. Yushav-Hesed — five. 

 

VII. (21) The sons of Hananyah: 

VII. A. P’latyah and 

VII. B. Yesha‘yah. 

VII. B. 1. His son was Refayah. 

VII. B. 1. a. His son was Arnan. 

VII. B. 1. a. i. His son was ‘Ovadyah. And 

VII. B. 1. a. i. a) his son was Sh’khanyah. 

 

VIII. (22) The sons of Sh’khanyah: 

VIII. A. Sh’ma‘yah and the sons of Sh’ma‘yah — 

VIII. A. 1. Hatush, 

VIII. A. 2. Yig’al, 

VIII. A. 3. Bariach, 

VIII. A. 4. Ne‘aryah and 

VIII. A. 5. Shafat — six. 

 

IX. (23) The sons of Ne‘aryah: 

IX. A. Elyo‘einai, 

IX. B. Hizkiyah and 

IX. C. ‘Azrikam — three. 

 

X. (24) The sons of Elyo‘einai: 

X. A. Hodavyahu, 

X. B. Elyashiv, 

X. C. P’layah, 

X. D. ‘Akuv, 

X. E. Yochanan, 

X. F. D’layah and 

X. G. ‘Anani — seven. 

CJB

Matthew 1:1-16
1 This is the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, son of David (pronounced "Dah-VEED"), son of Avraham: 

2 Avraham was the father of Yitz’chak,
Yitz’chak was the father of Ya‘akov,
Ya‘akov was the father of Y’hudah and his brothers,
3 Y’hudah was the father of Peretz and Zerach (their mother was Tamar),
Peretz was the father of Hetzron,
Hetzron was the father of Ram,
4 Ram was the father of ‘Amminadav,
‘Amminadav was the father of Nachshon,
Nachshon was the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon was the father of Bo‘az (his mother was Rachav),
Bo‘az was the father of ‘Oved (his mother was Rut),
‘Oved was the father of Yishai,
6 Yishai was the father of David the king.

David was the father of Shlomo (his mother was the wife of Uriyah),
7 Shlomo was the father of Rechav‘am,
Rechav‘am was the father of Aviyah,
Aviyah was the father of Asa,
8 Asa was the father of Y’hoshafat,
Y’hoshafat was the father of Yoram,
Yoram was the father of ‘Uziyahu,
9 ‘Uziyahu was the father of Yotam,
Yotam was the father of Achaz,
Achaz was the father of Hizkiyahu,
10 Hizkiyahu was the father of M’nasheh,
M’nasheh was the father of Amon,
Amon was the father of Yoshiyahu,
11 Yoshiyahu was the father of Y’khanyahu and his brothers
at the time of the Exile to Bavel. 

12 After the Babylonian Exile, Y’khanyahu was the father of Sh’altiel,
Sh’altiel was the father of Z’rubavel (probably through adoption after his father P'dayah died),
13 Z’rubavel was the father of Avihud,
Avihud was the father of Elyakim,
Elyakim was the father of ‘Azur,
14 ‘Azur was the father of Tzadok,
Tzadok was the father of Yakhin,
Yakhin was the father of El’ichud,
15 El’ichud was the father of El‘azar,
El‘azar was the father of Mattan,
Mattan was the father of Ya‘akov,
16 Ya‘akov was the father of Yosef the husband of Miryam, 
from whom was born the Yeshua who was called the Messiah. 
CJB

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli (through Miryam), 
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri, 
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah, 
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah, 
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan, 
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God. 
CJB

The lines were somewhat jumbled through the Exile in Bavel's (Babylon's) Captivity as men (and women and children) were lost through the merciless killings of war. Some lost their sons (and heirs) only to adopt another to take his place. Some lost their fathers and were adopted by a close relative. Some families were joined through marriage and their sons-in-law became their heirs, having no sons who could be heirs themselves. And, to complicate matters thoroughly, some genealogies list MOTHERS in with the list, when the heir is a surviving son from a second wife. And, Yowceef ADOPTED Miryam's first son, although Yeshua` was not his own child. (It's really all about heirship, not genetics.)

It should be enough that both of his parents' lineages are listed, and that both come from sons of David the king.

I hope this helps you more than confuses you.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, soonsister.

I should have mentioned one other important passage of Scripture: Zechariah 12:9-14:

Zechariah 12:9-14
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves. 
CJB

And, as can be seen in Luke 3 above, all four of these names are in Miryam's lineage.

[soonsister]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, soonsister.

You're quite welcome. I used to be a school teacher (for a SHORT time), and in my opinion, there's no such thing as a "dumb question." The only "dumb question" is the one that is never asked.

Yowceef's (Joseph's) lineage is found in Matthew 1.
Miryam's (Mary's) lineage is found in Luke 3.

 

I admit I'm near tears. Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. I was given the impression that the Miryam line was not detailed enough to trace back to David. And that Joseph, being he was not the biological father of Yeshua-Jesus, was not relevant in tracing to the line that would relate to prophecies.

It seems to me that there is a great deal lost between the Aramaic and Hebrew text in the old testament and understanding how it all lines up with the corollary to Koine Greek translations of it in the textual narrative of the new testament. 

Is there a bible version you'd recommend to understand the full context between both testaments as they relate to Messiah? I know a suggestion about a bible with references in the margins was made. And I'm looking into that. I found a site that is the blog of a very well known new testament scholar, Daniel Wallace.What Bible Should I Own (Dan Wallace) September 6, 2010 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/what-bible-should-i-own-dan-wallace/

With your knowledge and expertise what would be your recommendation?

 Thank you again for all of your help.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by soonsister
edited quote to save room on page

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, soonsister said:

I admit I'm near tears. Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. I was given the impression that the Miryam line was not detailed enough to trace back to David. And that Joseph, being he was not the biological father of Yeshua-Jesus, was not relevant in tracing to the line that would relate to prophecies.

It seems to me that there is a great deal lost between the Aramaic and Hebrew text in the old testament and understanding how it all lines up with the corollary to Koine Greek translations of it in the textual narrative of the new testament. 

Is there a bible version you'd recommend to understand the full context between both testaments as they relate to Messiah? I know a suggestion about a bible with references in the margins was made. And I'm looking into that. I found a site that is the blog of a very well known new testament scholar, Daniel Wallace.What Bible Should I Own (Dan Wallace) September 6, 2010 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/what-bible-should-i-own-dan-wallace/

With your knowledge and expertise what would be your recommendation?

 Thank you again for all of your help.

 

Shalom, soonsister.

Well, alas, I don't get into the new English translations too much. I've pretty much stuck to the old KJV. The King James (Authorized) Version has been enough for me because it was an early attempt at a word-for-word translation from the original languages into English. It also has the most study helps available, and it stays true to the "thee's" and "thou's" and "ye's" in the older English of King James I.

I WANT the "thee's" and "thou's" and "ye's" because they give us the additional information of case and number that is lost in today's English, particularly American English. Most study helps that are based upon Strong's Concordance and the Dictionaries it contains, will consistently use the same numbering system. And, that includes the PC Study Bible Version 5 program that I use that contains the Hebrew and Greek texts as well as several English versions.

Also, I grew up with the KJV as my ONLY version, being born in 1957, and I was taught "the King's English" since I could talk! That's not to say that I'm a "KJV-only" believer. I recognize that it has some discrepancies and that our modern English has migrated away from "the King's English."

I like the NIV (New International Version) for its simplicity, but it frequently misses the point, because it has too generic an interpretation of what was being said by the authors of the various books within the Bible.

A version I like that understands the Jewish roots of the Bible is the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) by David Stern. It was through this version that I came to understand that the four names listed in Zechariah 12 were to be found in Luke 3. However, even the CJB has its foibles because David Stern is human and has his own agenda in translating the way he did.

I don't like many of the modern versions because they are translated with the attempt to translate THOUGHTS rather than the words forming those thoughts. In doing so, the modern versions miss many of the finer points of the original languages. A case in point is...

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

How many versions do you know of that recognize that the Greek word translated "sky" three times in verses 2 and 3 (ouranos) is the SAME GREEK WORD translated "heaven" in verse 1?

That being said, however, the softer answer, especially for new believers in the Messiah, is this: "Whatever version you will find easiest to understand and you will read is the right version of the Bible for you."

[soonsister]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, soonsister.

Well, alas, I don't get into the new English translations too much. I've pretty much stuck to the old KJV. The King James (Authorized) Version has been enough for me because it was an early attempt at a word-for-word translation from the original languages into English. It also has the most study helps available, and it stays true to the "thee's" and "thou's" and "ye's" in the older English of King James I.

I WANT the "thee's" and "thou's" and "ye's" because they give us the additional information of case and number that is lost in today's English, particularly American English. Most study helps that are based upon Strong's Concordance and the Dictionaries it contains, will consistently use the same numbering system. And, that includes the PC Study Bible Version 5 program that I use that contains the Hebrew and Greek texts as well as several English versions.

Also, I grew up with the KJV as my ONLY version, being born in 1957, and I was taught "the King's English" since I could talk! That's not to say that I'm a "KJV-only" believer. I recognize that it has some discrepancies and that our modern English has migrated away from "the King's English."

I like the NIV (New International Version) for its simplicity, but it frequently misses the point, because it has too generic an interpretation of what was being said by the authors of the various books within the Bible.

A version I like that understands the Jewish roots of the Bible is the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) by David Stern. It was through this version that I came to understand that the four names listed in Zechariah 12 were to be found in Luke 3. However, even the CJB has its foibles because David Stern is human and has his own agenda in translating the way he did.

I don't like many of the modern versions because they are translated with the attempt to translate THOUGHTS rather than the words forming those thoughts. In doing so, the modern versions miss many of the finer points of the original languages. A case in point is...

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

How many versions do you know of that recognize that the Greek word translated "sky" three times in verses 2 and 3 (ouranos) is the SAME GREEK WORD translated "heaven" in verse 1?

That being said, however, the softer answer, especially for new believers in the Messiah, is this: "Whatever version you will find easiest to understand and you will read is the right version of the Bible for you."

Thank you. I especially like the softer answer. That makes perfect sense actually. God shall lead us to understanding. I do appreciate your suggestions as to the versions . I'll seek out the CJB as well and give it a look.

Blessings,

 

[JohnD]

I was going to give my 2 cents worth of input but it appears you have been satisfied with the excellent answers provided by others. 

I am so glad!