The Holy Trinity?

[Paper mache]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The second problem that you have takes us back to the evidence issue.  What evidence is there to suggest that "Spirit of Christ/Father" is just a reference  to the Father and Jesus? 

Luke 12:11-12 (NASB) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rules and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the HOLY SPIRIT  will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Matthew 10:18-20 (NASB) "And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER  who speaks in you."

It seems as though these two parallels indicate that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. Which, if the Father and the Holy Spirit are two separate Persons, this just doesn't make sense to me. And if I'm wrong, then please kindly point that out.

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

If you read the verses I suggested, you will see that Jesus meant what he said.  Jesus asks the Father to send another Helper ... if you are looking for a physical body, you won't find one. 

I'm not looking for a physical body. Yes, I know that Jesus asks the Father to send another Helper. But I don't see how this means the Helper has to be a person.

 

I don't think I'm going to be continuing this thread much longer. In my attempts to grow closer to God, I am only growing more and more confused as time goes on. So I'm going to be taking a break from debating and things of the sort, and I'll be focusing solely on what the Bible says. I don't know if the HS is a person or a power. But I know what the Bible directly tells me.

Despite what some of you think, I am taking what you guys are saying and considering it. I have already denounced (if that's the right word) my first claim that I proposed when I made the thread, that the HS is definitely a force, not a person. But although my new belief on this subject is completely muddled and confusing, I no longer hold that idea. And, I really don't know how much more confusion I can take at the moment. It weighs down on me spiritually.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

Then we see things quite different. For me, when God's word says that God sent His Son to save me, I believe He had a Son to send.

No, the problem is that you are trying to say that Jesus was begotten (born) before His incarnation and that is simply not the case. 

The Bible does not say that Jesus was the Son of God prior to His incarnation.   You're trying to build a doctrine on one or two verses and it doesn't work that way. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Brittany said:

Luke 12:11-12 (NASB) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rules and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the HOLY SPIRIT  will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Matthew 10:18-20 (NASB) "And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER  who speaks in you."

It seems as though these two parallels indicate that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. Which, if the Father and the Holy Spirit are two separate Persons, this just doesn't make sense to me. And if I'm wrong, then please kindly point that out.

The Holy Spirit is also called  "The Spirit of Truth,"  and "The Spirit of Holiness."   Those are just titles.    The phrase ,"Spirit of your Father" is just a title.  I am not sure why you find that so difficult.     Why does the formulaic phrase, "Spirit  of..."  mean that they are the one and the same?    "Spirit of God" or "Spirit of Christ"  and so on are just titles used to refer to the Holy Spirit."   It's no different than Jesus being referred to by different titles, like Emanuel, Prince of Peace, Son of Man, Son of God, Son of David, etc.

[Guest Thallasa]

5 hours ago, Brittany said:

Luke 12:11-12 (NASB) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rules and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the HOLY SPIRIT  will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Matthew 10:18-20 (NASB) "And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER  who speaks in you."

It seems as though these two parallels indicate that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. Which, if the Father and the Holy Spirit are two separate Persons, this just doesn't make sense to me. And if I'm wrong, then please kindly point that out.

I'm not looking for a physical body. Yes, I know that Jesus asks the Father to send another Helper. But I don't see how this means the Helper has to be a person.

 

I don't think I'm going to be continuing this thread much longer. In my attempts to grow closer to God, I am only growing more and more confused as time goes on. So I'm going to be taking a break from debating and things of the sort, and I'll be focusing solely on what the Bible says. I don't know if the HS is a person or a power. But I know what the Bible directly tells me.

Despite what some of you think, I am taking what you guys are saying and considering it. I have already denounced (if that's the right word) my first claim that I proposed when I made the thread, that the HS is definitely a force, not a person. But although my new belief on this subject is completely muddled and confusing, I no longer hold that idea. And, I really don't know how much more confusion I can take at the moment. It weighs down on me spiritually.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

Brittany ,there are perfectly good and sincere Christians who have this same problem, and I am one of them . In fact  to bully someone on this subject is completely counterproductive ,as it will alwys be one of those 'mysteries 'of God that humanity cannot totally comprehend with certainty .What we do know is that in order to gain the 'highest salvation, we must be recognising tht GOd is acting through three different  'roles' and that we need to be aware of these roles .

We need to recognise the Father as the lawmaker ,not only  of  the laws which guide us ,but which guide All of creation ,the Son Who is the renewer and Lightgiver ,our Saviour ,and the Holy  Spirit who  is guiding ,inspiring and protecting those who follow recognise the Father and Son .  That is when you become an true Christian ,God inspires you ,(to guide you to the Truth )and protects you (giving grace )while you grow into a fully mature person in Christ .

For me the word 'person' , is not the correct one, as it is used to describe human persons ,and this causes much confusion ,and even  is the cause of breakaways from Christianity towards the likes of JW etc , and is a stumbling block for sincere Jews who believe in One God .  That God is One ,there is no doubt ,but how He acts in Creation especially to save humanity ,is done as Three (parts ,roles ) We do not really totally understand yet , but it is clear that these Three parts of God must be recognised by us to give us life Eternal and Complete with Him .

    Brittany ,you are quire admirable for your sincerety , so may God bless you ,  from Thallasa

[Guest shiloh357]

42 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

For me the word 'person' , is not the correct one, as it is used to describe human persons ,and this causes much confusion ,and even  is the cause of breakaways from Christianity towards the likes of JW etc , and is a stumbling block for sincere Jews who believe in One God .

"Person" is the only correct term given how God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are presented to us.   To say that "person" can only refer to human beings is simply not true, according to Scripture.

The reason that it is confusing is that the Trinity doesn't have a counterpart in human experience.  There is nothing in our world that serves as point of reference to compare with the Trinity. 

God is beyond our understanding, beyond comprehension and this is just one example of that.   It seems that we always mouth the words, "God is beyond our comprehension,"  bur when we run up against just such a thing, we reject anything about God that we can't understand or make sense of.  So we fail to really live up to the reality we speak of.

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that God has no beginning, and no end.  There was never a time in the dateless eternal past that God didn't exist.  Same with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.   But  I have no way to understand that, as everything and everyone in this world has a beginning and an end.  Does that mean I am free to disregard what God says, or how He presents Himself to me if I deem it doesn't make sense?   Do I have the right to correct, define or mold God into what I can accept?

And btw, this is not the cause of a groups like the JW's or other cult groups, and it is not a stumbling block for Jews.   For Jews, it is the hardness of their heart to the Gospel.   Jewish rejection of Jesus is rooted in other reasons.   When people step out into eternity, they will not be able to point their finger at any doctrine and blame it for rejecting the offer of salvation.  The fault for their unbelief is theirs, and theirs alone.

[Guest Thallasa]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

"Person" is the only correct term given how God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are presented to us.   To say that "person" can only refer to human beings is simply not true, according to Scripture.

The reason that it is confusing is that the Trinity doesn't have a counterpart in human experience.  There is nothing in our world that serves as point of reference to compare with the Trinity. 

God is beyond our understanding, beyond comprehension and this is just one example of that.   It seems that we always mouth the words, "God is beyond our comprehension,"  bur when we run up against just such a thing, we reject anything about God that we can't understand or make sense of.  So we fail to really live up to the reality we speak of.

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that God has no beginning, and no end.  There was never a time in the dateless eternal past that God didn't exist.  Same with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.   But  I have no way to understand that, as everything and everyone in this world has a beginning and an end.  Does that mean I am free to disregard what God says, or how He presents Himself to me if I deem it doesn't make sense?   Do I have the right to correct, define or mold God into what I can accept?

And btw, this is not the cause of a groups like the JW's or other cult groups, and it is not a stumbling block for Jews.   For Jews, it is the hardness of their heart to the Gospel.   Jewish rejection of Jesus is rooted in other reasons.   When people step out into eternity, they will not be able to point their finger at any doctrine and blame it for rejecting the offer of salvation.  The fault for their unbelief is theirs, and theirs alone.

O.K., there is nothing that I would  disagree with here ,but ..........

[OneLight]

7 hours ago, Brittany said:

I'm not looking for a physical body. Yes, I know that Jesus asks the Father to send another Helper. But I don't see how this means the Helper has to be a person.

You keep using the word person.  Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.  Think deity instead.

[Paper mache]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

You keep using the word person.  Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.  Think deity instead.

That word makes me think that the HS is referred to as a separate god tbh. I know 'person' doesn't mean a human person or an individual, but as Tertullian used it, in the sense of a mask used in theatre.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Brittany said:

That word makes me think that the HS is referred to as a separate god tbh.

As an adjective, deity doesn't mean separate God.  The Holy Spirit is not a separate deity (noun)  from either the Father or Jesus, just a separate Person.  God is one God, but three persons, something we have no point of reference for in human experience, which is why it is such a mystery to us.

[brakelite]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, the problem is that you are trying to say that Jesus was begotten (born) before His incarnation and that is simply not the case. 

The Bible does not say that Jesus was the Son of God prior to His incarnation.   You're trying to build a doctrine on one or two verses and it doesn't work that way. 

 

And the trinity is built on more than one or two verses? You said previously that the Holy Spirit is referred to as "He", as opposed to an "it". That in numerous places such was the case.

Here are the ONLY verses that refer to the Holy Spirit as a “He” or “Him.” Verses are abbreviated.

John 14:16-17 “he shall give you another [allos] COMFORTER [parakletos], that he may abide with you forever; 17 Even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH;”
John 14:26 “But the COMFORTER [parakletos], which is the Holy Ghost,”
John 15:26 “when the COMFORTER [parakletos] is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH,”
John 16:7 “if I go not away, the COMFORTER [parakletos] will not come unto you;”
John 16:13 “when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he will guide you into all truth:”

Note that EVERY verse is referring to the COMFORTER [Greek=parakletos] and SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

So who is the COMFORTER and SPIRIT OF TRUTH?

In John 14:6 Jesus says, “I am the truth” and by His Spirit He is the “Spirit of truth.” (John 14:17)
And in John 14:18 Jesus said, “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.”

It is Christ by “HIS” Spirit!

Many get confused because Jesus said he will send “another” Comforter not realizing that the “another” is HIS SPIRIT. The Greek word “allos” for “another” in John 14:16 means another of the exact same kind. Jesus was present with His disciples in physical form, but after His ascension He comes back in another form, that is, by His Spirit. Hence the “another” is His Spirit. Because Christ's Spirit can function independently of Himself, it is like His Spirit is “another.” And because it is His Spirit, it is “another” of the same kind. If it was someone different, John would have used the Greek word “heteros” which means another of a different kind.

1 John 2:1 also reveals that Jesus is our “parakletos” (Comforter). John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7 above and 1 John 2:1 below are the only verses that use this Greek word which means “ADVOCATE and COMFORTER.” So the Greek text also reveals that our COMFORTER and Advocate is JESUS CHRIST the righteous!

“If any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] (Comforter) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” 1 John 2:1