Pre-Wrath what is it and timeline

[Marcus O'Reillius]

25 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The pre-wrath rapture theory views the trumpet and the bowl judgments (Revelation 7–16) as the wrath of God, from which the church is exempted (1 Thessalonians 5:9). However, the first six seal judgments (Revelation 6) are not considered the wrath of God; rather, they are viewed as “the wrath of Satan” or “the wrath of the antichrist.” This is because there is no direct mention of God’s wrath until after the sixth seal is broken (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath rapture theory, the church will be present to experience the first six seals.

Well now I get to try to have an argument with some other website whose author isn't even on this message board.

There is no direct mention of God's Wrath by God or any of His Servants with the sixth Seal either.

The wicked say that, and very selfishly too, I might add.

As I have constructed my Pre-Wrath eschatology, the relevant parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) are chapters 13-16 (inclusive).  After the midpoint abomination of the talking image and the Two Laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect - come 1. Jesus on the earth; 2. the 144,000, and 3: Three Angels who warn the earth - the first having the Gospel message completing the Great Commission which is a requirement for the "end" in the opening broad account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 - and then the two who tell the wicked what is going to become of them - and then Jesus comes to rescue the Elect with the Harvest in chapter 14.

So - when the wicked say what they say in Rev 6:17, it is not because God's Wrath is falling upon them, but that they know - because they've just been told - that it is coming.  However!  At that particular moment in time - that is NOT the very next thing which will happen!

God's Wrath is not evident until the Scroll is unsealed, and Angels sound out their Trumpets.  The first Trumpet supplies two elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath: fire and blood.  And that is exactly what the second and third angels told the wicked, and why the rich and their servants hiding underground are there - and they might very well survive that day - only to suffer even greater than they foisted upon the us, the Elect, during the Great Tribulation.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

46 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Again, arguing with a nameless author who isn't here...

The "presumption" of whom the Elect are - is taken from the NT.  When "elect" is used of a people or person - it always refers to believers in Christ.

The presumption which is carried in Pre-Trib eschatology is that here, and only in the Olivet Discourse, does "elect" mean: 'tribulation Saints'.

Now the ones Jesus prays ("let") escape are only those who are in Judea - and that is not predominantly Christian, but Jewish.  Reading Zechariah, I have concluded that those who flee are the very first contingent of the Remnant Jews who are marshalled through the rest of the one 'seven' -by Jesus- and ultimately come to Him in the Millennium.

And again, His Prayer is that it not be on the Sabbath, and I have faith that our Lord's Prayers will be answered - and those Jews will escape through the cleft He makes in the Mount of Olives when He touches down on it on the Day of the Lord.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[missmuffet]

Just now, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Again, arguing with a nameless author who isn't here...

The "presumption" of whom the Elect are - is taken from the NT.  When "elect" is used of a people or person - it always refers to believers in Christ.

The presumption which is carried in Pre-Trib eschatology is that here, and only in the Olivet Discourse, does "elect" mean: 'tribulation Saints'.

Now the ones Jesus prays ("let") escape are only those who are in Judea - and that is not predominantly Christian, but Jewish.  Reading Zechariah, I have concluded that those who flee are the very first contingent of the Remnant Jews who are marshalled through the rest of the one 'seven' -by Jesus- and ultimately come to Him in the Millennium.

And again, His Prayer is that it not be on the Millennium, and I have faith that our Lord's Prayers will be answered - and those Jews will escape through the cleft He makes in the Mount of Olives when He touches down on it on the Day of the Lord.

Believe as you want. That is your choice.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Just now, missmuffet said:

Believe as you want. That is your choice.

And the same to you.

Now if you have a particular point you'd like to argue, join in and be specific. 

[missmuffet]

Just now, Marcus O'Reillius said:

And the same to you.

Now if you have a particular point you'd like to argue, join in and be specific. 

Is arguing really the way to get a point across on a Christian message board?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

An argument is debate.

This board is all about conflicting beliefs - and when you put something up about my eschatology and then summarily dismiss it as idle belief, that is hardly academic debate.  That gets into the personal arguing that abounds here and on other eschatological boards.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Is arguing really the way to get a point across on a Christian message board?

You made the argument by posting someone else's work that "elect" doesn't necessarily mean the Church.

My POINT is that in every case where "elect" is used in the Greek NT for a person or people, it ALWAYS refers to believers, i.e., the Church.

Not providing any specific reason for an alternative usage, as your nameless website does, and then dismissing my point as a "belief" is patronizing.

[missmuffet]

6 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You made the argument by posting someone else's work that "elect" doesn't necessarily mean the Church.

My POINT is that in every case where "elect" is used in the Greek NT for a person or people, it ALWAYS refers to believers, i.e., the Church.

Not providing any specific reason for an alternative usage, as your nameless website does, and then dismissing my point as a "belief" is patronizing.

Got Questions is a Christian ministry. They have a literal and truthful interpretation of Scripture. Life is full of choices. You can read those words or deny them. I am not arguing with anyone.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

58 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4).

Just because Pre-Wrath eschatology invalidates other eschatologies' definitions and assumptions does not necessarily mean it is flawed.

A close comparison of the "beginning of birth pains" - which Jesus uses rather than saying it is "God's Wrath" can be made between the (expanded) Gospel account(s) of the Olivet Discourse and the first four Seals.

A good scholar studying the first four Seals ought to immediately go to OT prophecy, which is alluded to in Jesus' Revelation to John with the four horsemen Zechariah sees coming out of Heaven.

These four horsemen are described as "spirits" who go to work in the world in various directions.

There is no evidence in the broad overview account of the Seal/Scroll chronology that the first four Seals bring desolation upon the earth to the magnitude that even the first four Trumpets do - working just to a third of the earth.
 

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s.

"It would seem" begins a conclusion by the nameless author of a website who is not present to debate.

His only evidence for saying the conditions following the Seals being God's Judgments are that only Jesus is worthy to open the Scroll.

However, as the Father has sealed it, and I think the Scroll relates directly to Daniel 9:26 where the desolations God has decreed are stored - it follows that only the Son can open it.

It is not a logical following that just because Jesus is the only one worthy to unseal the Scroll, that what follows are Judgments - and with the first, fifth, and seventh - no harm is described at all which affects the wicked as a judgment - period.  To say they all are judgments is not supported in Revelation.

The Scroll's contents, which are sealed, then contains God's Judgments - which are desolations which affect wide portions and later on, the entire earth as a physical punishment to the proud and wicked.
 

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

The one 'seven' begins when "ruler (prince) who will come" prevails the covenant with many.

The Great Tribulation begins only when the (midpoint) abomination (of) desolation mentioned by Gabriel occurs - in the Holy Place.

To say: "The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal" is a conclusion and is not supported by Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, or Daniel 9:27.

The Seals are but the beginning of birth pains.

I think including them as beginning the one 'seven' is incorrect.
I think the first four Seals have already been broken.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

17 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Got Questions is a Christian ministry. They have a literal and truthful interpretation of Scripture. Life is full of choices. You can read those words or deny them. I am not arguing with anyone.

That is not a valid argument.

You are arguing for a position.

You continue to argue for your position but without debate.