The Rapture and Jewish Feasts

[Ezra]

On 3/5/2017 at 0:54 PM, Keras said:

This is a subject which is avoided because a lot of Christians believe in a pre-trib rapture, so they must maintain a separation between Church and Israel for their theory to work

That is hardly the case. All the Old Testament prophecies pertaining to Israel relate specifically and directly to Israel, and YOU WILL NOT FIND THE CHURCH in the OT.  

Therefore, of necessity, there must be a distinction between Israel and the Church.  The Land of Promise is for the twelve tribes of Israel.  New Jerusalem in Heaven is the eternal home of the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).

So Keras, you can either apply the prophecy of Ezekiel (for example) to Israel, or you can wander off into Fantasyland.

[Keras]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

That is hardly the case. All the Old Testament prophecies pertaining to Israel relate specifically and directly to Israel, and YOU WILL NOT FIND THE CHURCH in the OT.  

Therefore, of necessity, there must be a distinction between Israel and the Church.  The Land of Promise is for the twelve tribes of Israel.  New Jerusalem in Heaven is the eternal home of the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).

So Keras, you can either apply the prophecy of Ezekiel (for example) to Israel, or you can wander off into Fantasyland.

All of the above is just promoted in order to support the fantasy of a rapture to heaven.

There was a people right from Adam, who constitute the 'church', that is an elect group of true believers. The 7000 of Elijah's day and now every individual born again Christian believer.  The Two people, Two promises doctrine is a false teaching;

One People of God:

Not only does the bible not teach that there are two distinct peoples of God, Israel and the Church, but it is very explicitly opposed to this idea. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 3:11

For one thing, the Church, defined as the group of true believers of God,  existed in the Old Testament, long before the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 7:38, and furthermore, the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the modern day Church is really just the expansion of God's people that He originally chose.

According to Paul being an Israelite has never been based on anything other than faith in God, Romans 2:28-29 & 9:6-8 and only those who have been called according to God's promise are Abraham's true seed. Romans 9:8

 Hence, all who have [Christian] faith are Abraham's children, and are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29

When Paul deals extensively with the whole question of the place of Jews and Gentiles in the people of God, in Romans 11, he shows that there is just one people, symbolized by one good olive tree; unbelieving individual Jews may be broken off of that tree of true Israel and believing individual Christian Gentiles may be grafted in; but there is still one tree, one body, one people of God.  Paul teaches elsewhere that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ, but that all believers are members of the same body, citizens of the one Christian congregation of the Israelites of God and the inheritors of all the promises made to Abraham. Ephesians 2:11-22, 3:6, Galatians 4:26-31, Phil. 3:20, Hebrews 12:22-23

 In short, there is and always has been just one people of God, and that people includes all those who are grafted in to God's “good olive tree” to become Abraham's children by faith, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, every true Christian believer. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8, Psalms 73:1

 

[Ezra]

43 minutes ago, Keras said:

All of the above is just promoted in order to support the fantasy of a rapture to heaven.

How can a revelation from God be labeled a fantasy?  The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints is the culmination of the Church's salvation.  And since the eternal home of the saints is in the New Jerusalem, which is Heaven, that is an established truth of Scripture.

Coming back to Israel, how can the Abrahamic Covenant be literally fulfilled unless a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel is established between the Nile and the Euphrates?

So it's time to get back to REALITY.  Eternal verities, not fantasies.

[n2thelight]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:11 AM, iamlamad said:

And all that is certainly true. All WILL happen before His Rev. 19 coming.  What you are missing is that Matthew 24 is not for the church. That was for Jewish men that ask Him about the end of THEIR age, which end will be the 70th week of Daniel. The church age is like a parenthesis inserted into their age. It was started after Israel as a nation rejected Christ, and it will end before their final week.

We have two tree's in scripture from the beginning,ie the Garden

Tree of life who is Christ

Tree of the knowledge of good and evil,who is satan

Again only two choices,don't care if you are Jew or Gentile 

Your choice of which you shall be a part of,grafted into.

 

Now how can Matt 24 not be written to the Church,as you say?

If a Jew is not saved he is not of Christ,period!

As Ive said many times,you can't seperate Israel from the Church.

How can something be written to people who don't believe in Christ?

Only way to the Father is through Christ,meaning one must be a Christian.

Sooooooo all of a sudden the Jew's will start reading Matt 24.

 

Bottom line ,one will either take the Mark,or have the seal of God.

Speaking of which,how can the Jew's be sealed of God,when they don't believe

Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

If they(Israel)are not the Church,how can they be His servants?

[n2thelight]

 

@  iamlamad

Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Is'-ra-el."

Are you saying the above scripture consist all Jew's and non of the Church?

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

How can a revelation from God be labeled a fantasy?  The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints is the culmination of the Church's salvation.  And since the eternal home of the saints is in the New Jerusalem, which is Heaven, that is an established truth of Scripture.

I have yet to see a prophecy or any scripture that says God will take His living people to heaven.

The culmination of our salvation is to live with Jesus on earth, Rev 5:9-10 makes that clear.

The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, after the Millennium. Rev 21:1

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

Coming back to Israel, how can the Abrahamic Covenant be literally fulfilled unless a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel is established between the Nile and the Euphrates?

Yes, that will happen and we see who will be the citizens of that new nation. Romans 8:8 is clear: we Christians ARE the descendants of Abraham, by faith. WE are the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

So it's time to get back to REALITY.  Eternal verities, not fantasies.

The reality will hit you when disaster strikes and you remain on earth.

[n2thelight]

Curioisity question

All children will go in the rapture correct?

My question will anymore children be born while you all are in Heaven during the trib?

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

We have two tree's in scripture from the beginning,ie the Garden

Tree of life who is Christ

Tree of the knowledge of good and evil,who is satan

Again only two choices,don't care if you are Jew or Gentile 

Your choice of which you shall be a part of,grafted into.

 

Now how can Matt 24 not be written to the Church,as you say?

If a Jew is not saved he is not of Christ,period!

As Ive said many times,you can't seperate Israel from the Church.

How can something be written to people who don't believe in Christ?

Only way to the Father is through Christ,meaning one must be a Christian.

Sooooooo all of a sudden the Jew's will start reading Matt 24.

 

Bottom line ,one will either take the Mark,or have the seal of God.

Speaking of which,how can the Jew's be sealed of God,when they don't believe

Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

If they(Israel)are not the Church,how can they be His servants?

Sorry, but your thinking and what you have written are simply wrong.

Only way to the Father is through Christ,meaning one must be a Christian.

True. Jesus said He is the ONLY door.  But this door must be a double door. Today the door is open for people to be born again and become a part of the Body of Christ. But for those who live through the 7 years, then survive the parable of the tares, and then pass the test of the Judgement of nations, they will enter into the Millennial Kingdom. Most of them, I would guess, will be JEWS, but their will be some Gentiles.  Will they be "born again? I will let you guess. I don't think so. Will they be "to the Father" as you wrote? I guess not. Neither will they get to see the throne room until perhaps much later when the Holy City descends down on the NEW earth.

If a Jew is not saved he is not of Christ,period!

There are many Jews today that are not "of Christ" as you say, but are most definitely "of the Father," meaning they love the Father with all their being.  God is going to take them through the 70th week until they finally have no hope of survival unless God Himself saves them. And when they discover it is Jesus who saves them, THEN they will believe in Him who died for them. And they will mourn. Will they be born again? I don't think so. You can guess if you wish. If they pass the judgment of the tares and of the nations, they will be allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom.  You see, most Christians would write them off, but God loves them, and will not, because He has made promises to them that He will most certainly fulfill.

Bottom line ,one will either take the Mark,or have the seal of God.

This is simply not truth either. You are batting zero so far. ONLY 144,000 will be sealed. There will be MANY Jews and Hebrews that will not get sealed and will not take the mark, and will end up in the Millennial kingdom.

Speaking of which,how can the Jew's be sealed of God,when they don't believe

This is a good question.  The 144,000 that will be sealed will believe in Jesus Christ. However, either they were left behind on purpose by God at the pretrib rapture, or else, they understood when the rapture took place that Jesus WAS their Messiah, so turned to believing in Him right after the rapture. Of course, if you don't believe in the rapture, this will go right over your head.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Sorry but false, Isaiah has thoroughly refuted if you think New Jerusalem isnt for Israel.

Isaiah 60:3

And His glory will be 
seen upon you. 3 The Gentiles [nations] 
shall come to your light, And kings to 
the brightness of your rising.

 

Rev 21:24
4 And the nations of those who are 
saved shall walk in its light, and the 
kings of the earth bring their glory and 
honor into it.

 

Isaiah 60:11

Therefore your gates 
shall be open continually; They shall 
not be shut day or night, That men may 
bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles,
And their kings in procession

 

Rev 21:25-27
25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by 
day (there shall be no night there). 26 
And they shall bring the glory and the 
honor of the nations into it.

 

Isaiah 60:19

"The sun shall no longer be your 
light by day, Nor for brightness shall 
the moon give light to you; But the 
LORD will be to you an everlasting 
light, And your God your glory. 20 
Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor 
shall your moon withdraw itself; For 
the LORD will be your everlasting 
light, And the days of your mourning 
shall be ended. 21 Also your people 
shall all be righteous; 

 

Rev 21:23-24
23 The city had no need of the sun or of 
the moon to shine in it, for the glory of 
God illuminated it. The Lamb is its 
light.

 

Isaiah 54:5 - 12

For your Maker 
is your husband, The LORD of hosts is 
His name; And your Redeemer is the 
Holy One of Israel; He is called the 
God of the whole earth. 6 For the 
LORD has called you Like a woman 
forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a 
youthful wife when you were refused,"
Says your God. 7 "For a mere moment I 
have forsaken you, But with great 
mercies I will gather you. 8 With a 
little wrath I hid My face from you for 
a moment; But with everlasting 
kindness I will have mercy on you,"
Says the LORD, your Redeemer. 9 "For 
this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For 
as I have sworn That the waters of Noah 
would no longer cover the earth, So 
have I sworn That I would not be angry 
with you, nor rebuke you. 10 For the 
mountains shall depart And the hills be 
removed, But My kindness shall not 
depart from you, Nor shall My covenant 
of peace be removed," Says the LORD, 
who has mercy on you. 11 "O you 
afflicted one, Tossed with tempest, and 
not comforted, Behold, I will lay your 
stones with colorful gems, And lay 
your foundations with sapphires. 12 I 
will make your pinnacles of rubies, 
Your gates of crystal, And all your 
walls of precious stones.

 

Rev 21:18-21
18 The construction of its wall was of 
jasper; and the city was pure gold, like 
clear glass. 19 The foundations of the 
wall of the city were adorned with all 
kinds of precious stones: the first 
foundation was jasper, the second 
sapphire, the third chalcedony, the 
fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, 
the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, 
the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the 
tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, 
and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The 
twelve gates were twelve pearls: each 
individual gate was of one pearl. And 
the street of the city was pure gold, like 
transparent glass.

This is why I detest dispensationalism to its core, it robs Israel of its inheritance, it goes so to even utterly divorce our apostles (Church fathers) from the Church all together.

 

You did a good job here, comparing Isaiah to Revelation. However, your theory on dispensations is wrong. God has most definitely dealt with mankind different in different ages. As I wrote to you before, "the law and the prophets were until John." This shows us a dispensational change. God did NOT deal with man the same way after Christ came.  Indeed, the disciples of Christ were a part of the church, but that church made up of Jews disappeared. The church became Gentile.

Imagine a parenthesis put in the timeline of the Jews: it is the church age, or age of Grace. It will end with the rapture, and then it will be the 70th week of Daniel - as if the church age did not happen. (That is the way parentheses work) The 70th week will be the last 7 years of the Jewish age that probably ended sometime around when Paul declared that He was going to the Gentiles.

My question to you is, why do you detest something that is very scriptural? Oh! Probably those pesky preconceived glasses again that block the truth!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Oh boy here we go again your antichrist cutting an imagery covenant between jews and God which scripture makes no mention of. 

Completely ignoring the messianic overtones in Daniels Seventy Sevens, ripping the crucifixion out completely to bring an end to sin. Where Jesus has to walk around with the torah as he is completely imcompetent of knowing Daniels seventy sevens according to you, whereby discrediting the bible to accuratly predict the timing of Christs death. 

 

This all in an attempt to keep an apartheid between jews and gentiles.

 

 

Where hereby you propose we cut the root off from the church. Jews do not make up the entirety of Israelites. The House of Ephraim were not jews. They ended up becoming gentiles and became Christianized. Im sorry to tell you but you can not seperate the church from Israel.

 

 

Ill be honest with you, Ive had my fill with your imaginations.

 

 

The "age of grace" existed well within the OT.

 

God planned the church from before creation and was not an afterthought after the Jews rejected Jesus.

 

The idea that the church age will come to an end, is a violation of the most basic concept of the Gospel of Christ. 

 

 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever

 

 

I havnt found anything scriptual that has been posted yet.

That was for YOU to imagine, because you don't believe it. I know it is truth. There ARE parentheses in the book of Revelation and your theories show you ignore them completely.