Could the antichrist be a Muslim

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think you should not copy and paste. But you should go check all these reference you post cause I don't think you have read one of them.

You don't think I have read one of them???  H'mmmm, And from where did I copy and past anything> And I have read and checked every Scripture, not only on this thread, but every Scripture I quote out of the Bible on every thread I post in.

To understand any doctrine it helps get every single Scripture regarding the entire subject being studied, not just one or two, and then put ones' own personal idea on what is being discussed, and if you disagree start throwing accusations at posters. As is I would not have read one of the Scriptures I posted.

Your free to believe whatever you like, but accusations freely thrown about gets you no where. 

[simplejeff]

On 5/24/2017 at 3:50 PM, HAZARD said:

The Church will be taken out of the world,  (1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to

Not necessarily,  not by any real certainty anyway.

Several things may indicate instead that "nothing is removed",  rather ,  the enemy is more and more 'birthed' until fully empowered on earth to even kill the saints worldwide (as has been happening lately, and for many centuries,  in places)..... 

and YHWH answers the prayers for quick justice  --  wait a little longer,   until the last martyr has been beheaded(or otherwise killed), 

then I WILL COME [at once] QUICKLY and EXECUTE MY VENGEANCE upon those who have shed the innocent blood since Adam.

In many other ways it is revealed in God's Word that the ekklesia will not be spared suffering nor kept from tribulation and persecution,  but rather it is necessary for everyone who stands up for the truth to suffer persecution and not draw back,  but endure to the end (death or Y'SHUA'S Return).....

[HAZARD]

21 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Not necessarily,  not by any real certainty anyway.

Several things may indicate instead that "nothing is removed",  rather ,  the enemy is more and more 'birthed' until fully empowered on earth to even kill the saints worldwide (as has been happening lately, and for many centuries,  in places)..... 

and YHWH answers the prayers for quick justice  --  wait a little longer,   until the last martyr has been beheaded(or otherwise killed), 

then I WILL COME [at once] QUICKLY and EXECUTE MY VENGEANCE upon those who have shed the innocent blood since Adam.

In many other ways it is revealed in God's Word that the ekklesia will not be spared suffering nor kept from tribulation and persecution,  but rather it is necessary for everyone who stands up for the truth to suffer persecution and not draw back,  but endure to the end (death or Y'SHUA'S Return).....

I have posted this many times and its as clear as a ringing bell. The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

  1 Thess. 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
   v. 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.

Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.

Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I fully believe it. But I don't separate the saints into two groups as pretrib does. Pretrib demands that a certain group of saints is without sin and worthy to be raptured, while the rest of the 'saints' are unholy sinners who deserve the fire persecution. It's arrogant to position the self as better or more deserving than others of the same group.

Believers will end up separating themselves according to this verse. Those that believe this verse will pray that they will be found worthy to escape what is coming.  They believe that the escape planned by God will be the pretrib rapture.

On the other hand, there are many that believe in Jesus but just don't believe God has planned a way of escape before the days of tribulation.  What else can God do when people will not believe His word?   Others that believe in Jesus Christ will separate themselves because they believe that grace covers all sins. Some today believe this so fully they believe 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, so they quit confessing their sins to God.  Therefore I don't believe you have it right. Pretrib demands nothing. But they do believe Luke 21:36.  There is no arrogance in believing God's word.  If some believers wish to be left behind, that is their business. Perhaps God will give them what they wish.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

An interesting rationale. Since such an event has never occurred there is is no precedent on which to lean for your conclusion. From the historic record of the bible we see that only those that walked with God, the individuals Enoch and Elijah, were taken off the earth before dying a physical death, but never such a large group as will only occur once, at the 2nd coming. And we also see that God's people suffered persecution at the hand of man many times, for disobedience. God did not allow His people to suffer God's wrath however, Noah, Israel in Egypt. Notably the Jews in Egypt suffered persecution right before God poured out His wrath on the Egyptians. The same thing will occur at the end of the age. We will enter that time and be saved from wrath, not persecution.

Here we agree: there is a difference between persecution and God's wrath. However, a careful study of Revelation will show that while Satan's wrath is at its peak with persecution and the martyring of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath, so they will both be happening together: Satan's wrath and God's wrath together. No wonder Jesus said there never was and never will again be days such as these.

We probably disagree on what will be the "second" coming. He already came once, so the next coming will be the 2nd coming. It will be pretrib and will be when Christ comes FOR His church. It will take place before the 6th seal, which John tells us will be the start of the Day of His wrath. The truth is, ANYONE left on the earth at the 7th seal that will begin the 70th week of Daniel, will be in God's wrath. And His wrath will build as the days go one and no one repents.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

No one insists on this. In fact it would be preferable to avoid the terrible beast of the end of the age. We just understand there is no early escape as it cannot be  found in the book of truth.

What do you say to the millions of believers around the world today that suffer persecution and death in the name of Jesus? No rapture has occurred for those people. What about them? Do you deem them 'unworthy'?

It seems YOU are insisting on it. Read it again:

³⁶ Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy^[c] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

He had just written that "that day" or "the Day of His wrath" will come as a snare upon all who are on the earth.  Of course then "all these things" will included this verse just before. Those who are prepared will indeed escape the Day of the Lord, for the Day of the Lord IS the Day of His wrath, and we have no appointments with His wrath.

 

WHERE do fin find the start of His wrath? It is at the 6th seal, and will then include every trumpet judgment.  That is why Paul puts His rapture before the start of the wrath of God which will be before the 6th seal. The great earthquake at the 6th seal is the very "sudden destruction" Paul wrote of. This sudden destruction earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will come SUDDENLY upon all those who dwell on the earth. That is, all except those who will be caught up WITH those dead in Christ. They will be caught up before this worldwide earthquake can harm them.

As I said, there will be ONLY ONE rapture, and it will not be timed to save someone from persecution. It may well save millions from persecution, but it will be timed when God the FAther says it is time. So all these who are dying and being martyred today will probably be martyred. And it will get worse before the rapture. I am quite sure of that. I hope the rapture will be THIS YEAR. And I hope every believer is ready.

 

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I have posted this many times and its as clear as a ringing bell. The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

  1 Thess. 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
   v. 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

Why omit verse 15?

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It seems YOU are insisting on it. Read it again:

 

 

I'll give you credit for at least saying what all the others infer, but unfortunately you are in for a big surprise.  You should read over all the references from Paul or anyone else, they all say this will happen at His coming.

[HAZARD]

3 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Why omit verse 15?

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Lets break verse 15 down then.

"by the word of the Lord" . . . . This means by Revelation (Gal. 1:12).

 Christians at death go immediately to heaven to wait the resurrection of their sleeping bodies (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-24; Hebrews 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

"The coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." . . . . The coming in the air (v 17), not His second advent to the earth of Zech. 14; Rev. 19: Matt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Jude 14.

When Christ leaves heaven to come down in the air of the earth (v 17), the saints who are in heaven will come back with Him and be reunited with their bodies which will be resurrected in a moment (v 14; 1 Cor. 15:51-58). The word "prevent," Gr. phthano, to come before or first. It means that the living saints will not precede or go before the dead saints, but that both will go together to meet the Lord in the air (v 16-17). Trans. "prevent" (v 15); "attain" (Rom. 9:31; Phil. 3;16; and "come" (Matt. 12:28; Luke 11;20; 2 Cor. 10:14; 1 Thess. 2:16).

1 Thess. 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Christians are not in ignorance and darkness about the day of the Lord (v 1-2, 4-5, 9). The rapture takes place at least 7 years before the second advent 2 Thess. 2:7. Therefore they will not be here so the day will overtake them as a thief like it will the ungodly (1 Thess. 5: 2-5).

The Jews had a tradition that God would judge the Gentiles at night when they were careless and asleep in sin, but wouldjudge the Jews in the day when they would be employed in keeping the law. But both Jews and gentiles who miss the rapture will have the day of the Lord come upon them as a thief. It is only brethren who will be translated and escape this day (v 4-5, 9; Luke 21:36). 

[wingnut-]

2 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Lets break verse 15 down then.

"by the word of the Lord" . . . . This means by Revelation (Gal. 1:12).

 Christians at death go immediately to heaven to wait the resurrection of their sleeping bodies (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-24; Hebrews 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

"The coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." . . . . The coming in the air (v 17), not His second advent to the earth of Zech. 14; Rev. 19: Matt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Jude 14.

When Christ leaves heaven to come down in the air of the earth (v 17), the saints who are in heaven will come back with Him and be reunited with their bodies which will be resurrected in a moment (v 14; 1 Cor. 15:51-58). The word "prevent," Gr. phthano, to come before or first. It means that the living saints will not precede or go before the dead saints, but that both will go together to meet the Lord in the air (v 16-17). Trans. "prevent" (v 15); "attain" (Rom. 9:31; Phil. 3;16; and "come" (Matt. 12:28; Luke 11;20; 2 Cor. 10:14; 1 Thess. 2:16).

1 Thess. 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Christians are not in ignorance and darkness about the day of the Lord (v 1-2, 4-5, 9). The rapture takes place at least 7 years before the second advent 2 Thess. 2:7. Therefore they will not be here so the day will overtake them as a thief like it will the ungodly (1 Thess. 5: 2-5).

The Jews had a tradition that God would judge the Gentiles at night when they were careless and asleep in sin, but wouldjudge the Jews in the day when they would be employed in keeping the law. But both Jews and gentiles who miss the rapture will have the day of the Lord come upon them as a thief. It is only brethren who will be translated and escape this day (v 4-5, 9; Luke 21:36). 

 

Lol, well ,that is an interesting breakdown, you kinda jump right over the part that says we who are alive and remain UNTIL the Coming of the Lord, will not precede those who are already deceased.  There is nothing between there about an exit prior to this, nor will you find any instance of this event being spoken of that is not specific about it being at His coming.

The best depiction of the "rapture" as some insist on calling it, is from Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

Again in this passage, it states that it is at His coming.  And the very next verse attaches the symbol of the thief to it, which appears in Revelation 16.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

I am coming as a thief, in quotations.  We know who is coming, and we know when, just prior to Armageddon.

God bless