Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

[Neighbor]

6 hours ago, Churchmouse said:

You know, I find it odd that many who are against a physical wall have supported a mental one for years. It is a wall that doesn't allow free expression under the guise of protecting the feelings of those whom they assume they need to speak for. This wall is called Political Correctness.

 Hi,

I speak for myself, and expect to be allowed to do so. No one need agree  -most seldom do for that matter .

What I really like is the thought from  Robert Frost of a time  presumably before the influx of so many people via illegal immigration. But perhaps there was an underlying message within his work based upon changing neighborhoods  too ( but I don't think so).

It is suggested by some that cities of Biblical times did not have walls. Yet  it seems to me that they sure did. Plus they  were constructed with gates for day and low gates for night. Yet every city has been breached , and many times too. What I see is that  if we are to stop the sojourner of today we must stop the electronic flow of money earned and sent back into other lands. That has the effect of crippling trade too, as it has already with the $10,000 limit imposed less than a decade ago under the previous presidency of the USA.

I travel into California a few times a year. Don't like it much there, but I have to concede the place is flourishing with activity  despite all the hardships, and the overspending of it's governing bodies. It grows and grows at  an amazing pace. Now I hate it for I remember the old days when I first immigrated there from the immigrant ghettos of Boston. It was wide open spaces and new families all with common interests- making it in a new land.

It has become similar in density of population  here on the Suncoast of Florida too. But our influx includes a lot of Eastern European peoples. I do look to find that reprieve from  growing population- but suspect that  is long gone. So might as well try to find ways to be welcoming of each other  as we also try to be the saints in Christ we are led to believe we should be. Ones that do the command to go into all the world as sojourners ourselves sharing the gospel of Jesus. 

To me that is  a clue as to what may be wrong at home, perhaps it is true that  we don't really share of our Lord, especially as we build and repair walls again and again. Perhaps if the environment of our  homeland were more Christian we would have a very different PC. As it is, we battle each other over how we are going to keep others out. Half the country is against walls, half wants  to mix concrete and steel and make a cage.

Trouble is the seas, - can't hardly wall out all the shorelines. That requires electronic fences, with alert systems. Might as well just try to build a cyber fence instead of  a brick and mortar one, a cyber fence as thick as the country is long and wide. So that no matter where one goes, it is known and controlled. But known to and controlled by whom is the problem, isn't it?

We are aliens  as Christians anyway, are we not? Do we wall against ourselves?

 

 

[Neighbor]

"My" own local body of Christ Jesus, the one I was led to  some 15 years ago, has undergone change in that time as the masses of humanity  are changing all around us. As Christians, some of us ( me included) have battled against our own  instincts to kept separate, even as we invited foreign speaking people into our school and now have ESL classes for adults at church. 

We have a sign announcing English as a second language classes. Our missionaries led to do such work as teaching English do so  with the goal of being practical as they share of our Lord Jesus in multiple languages.  Right at home! I thought it funny to put up a sign in English announcing classes to learn English. And like some others who actually asked, thought  why not in Spanish ?  The answer is, it is not just Spanish speaking people that are here and in need of Jesus and knowledge of English. Sure enough  the classes deal with many people speaking several native tongues, and perhaps a few spiritual ones too. So the sign is in English, and people come.

 Our families are more and more international in physical appearance today, unlike yesteryears. Both at church and  my own extended family, we are of many nations, former creeds, and we have differing physical appearances and skin colors.  All  are different, or blended. What we come to enjoy is seeing each other as brother and sisters all in need of  the sacrifice made by Jesus  that we may have eternal life. When that  becomes our strongest focus we prosper in heart and soul.

 I think that is what  Frost may have had  in his heart when he wrote there is something that doesn't like a fence, and he mentioned the various means by which the wall keeps getting torn down by all of creation- God's creation. Perhaps it is God that does not like  a wall- yet  perhaps it is He,  the sovereign God, that has us  building them over and over for us to just to see them breached and collapsed. Perhaps it is as hard lessons to us of our futilities and need of Him.

 

[Churchmouse]

9 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 Hi,

I speak for myself, and expect to be allowed to do so. No one need agree  -most seldom do for that matter .

What I really like is the thought from  Robert Frost of a time  presumably before the influx of so many people via illegal immigration. But perhaps there was an underlying message within his work based upon changing neighborhoods  too ( but I don't think so).

It is suggested by some that cities of Biblical times did not have walls. Yet  it seems to me that they sure did. Plus they  were constructed with gates for day and low gates for night. Yet every city has been breached , and many times too. What I see is that  if we are to stop the sojourner of today we must stop the electronic flow of money earned and sent back into other lands. That has the effect of crippling trade too, as it has already with the $10,000 limit imposed less than a decade ago under the previous presidency of the USA.

I travel into California a few times a year. Don't like it much there, but I have to concede the place is flourishing with activity  despite all the hardships, and the overspending of it's governing bodies. It grows and grows at  an amazing pace. Now I hate it for I remember the old days when I first immigrated there from the immigrant ghettos of Boston. It was wide open spaces and new families all with common interests- making it in a new land.

It has become similar in density of population  here on the Suncoast of Florida too. But our influx includes a lot of Eastern European peoples. I do look to find that reprieve from  growing population- but suspect that  is long gone. So might as well try to find ways to be welcoming of each other  as we also try to be the saints in Christ we are led to believe we should be. Ones that do the command to go into all the world as sojourners ourselves sharing the gospel of Jesus. 

To me that is  a clue as to what may be wrong at home, perhaps it is true that  we don't really share of our Lord, especially as we build and repair walls again and again. Perhaps if the environment of our  homeland were more Christian we would have a very different PC. As it is, we battle each other over how we are going to keep others out. Half the country is against walls, half wants  to mix concrete and steel and make a cage.

Trouble is the seas, - can't hardly wall out all the shorelines. That requires electronic fences, with alert systems. Might as well just try to build a cyber fence instead of  a brick and mortar one, a cyber fence as thick as the country is long and wide. So that no matter where one goes, it is known and controlled. But known to and controlled by whom is the problem, isn't it?

We are aliens  as Christians anyway, are we not? Do we wall against ourselves?

 

 

 I don't know why you started that off with your expectations of being able to speak as if you would somehow be stopped by someone. We aren't the one's who try to censor people or force PC down others throats. Have you ever not been able to express your opinion here?

There is no reason to think that money drained from our shores will return to us in trade.

This has nothing to do with us being Christian.  We are not here to welcome people who break the laws of a country that in the Bible says we need to honor and uphold. We are here to bring people into our Christian fold, but that is separate from the secular world. The issue is if these people break the laws of this country, then they have failed to conform with the teachings of the Bible and If they reject those, then they reject God's word.  Christians are representing Christ and need to reflect that in everything they do. I've never read anything that would lead me to believe that he did anything against the governing authority in the land.

We are not aliens in any way, shape or form in the country we are legal in. We hold residence here and follow the rules set down by that government, up until it counters God's laws and then we are to follow God. This wall breaches none of that.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Churchmouse

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

immigrant ghetto?

so were your family illegal aliens who crossed into US illegally too?

i am happy to see your life turned out so well

but if your family crossed into US illegally, then you have sinned against the almighty God which i am sure you have repented for 

you just need to need to stop justifying others from sinning in the same way.

either you put God first or you don't

 

Funny response. 

 

But to the subject at hand. There is something about a wall - 

"Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:"....

It does seems to me that  there is something that does not like a wall. And yet we are about building walls, trying to become a stagnant fortress.

Forts always fall. We cannot build and hold a fort. We are a people that crush walls  ourselves and spread about the world what we declare is a better idea that God has created us with unalienable rights. And what does that mean, inalienable? what are those rights? Can we build forts to contain those rights?

I don't see that we can. And should we? What is it we are protecting? Is it of God, or is it ungodly at the core? is it the old man trying to keep the flesh imprisoned, when the spirit tells us no, instead share give up worldly things do all to the Glory of God. Is there glory to God in a wall?

Some say that is all spiritual, we must work in the secular. Really? I can't with personal integrity say I feel I am honoring the Spirit of God by separating Him  away from me  declaring I have a secular responsibility separate from my responsibility to God.  And that it is a major overruling responsibility that trumps His command to do all that I do  in His honor to bring Glory  upon Him out of appreciation for what He  is and for what has done for me. Nope, that is not doable. So a wall any wall seems a poor way to go. Yet we do build and rebuild walls of many kinds again and again and yet again. ll seems rather futile. And is that not God's point in having us do the exercise of building them  yet again. We need to learn to trust in Him that He can provide for every person every person that need that is th eperfect provision for all at every moment so that many will see Him and believe on His Son as Lord and savior. Christians have a protector a comforter given each of us by  Jesus while he builds the honeymoon cottage fo rHis bride and awaits His  Fathers declaration that it is ready, go - go for your bride now.

Just seems to me that  trying to keep  people  separate through walling up lands is not in the long range view  what is going to be declared as doing all things to the glory of God.

So the question also asked, "what is the alternative?"  Trust God in all things, pray first think, ask God, read His word,  and pray  again. Then if it is clear God wants walls,  build them to his specifications. But; don't build them to save that which is going to burn anyway without first hearing God's desire of us and His command to us. 

We are here for a higher purpose than to wall each other away from -each other. God will provide our need perfectly, if we ask and trust and depend on His word, and ask pray and think and pray. He does so for the commonest of birds, how much more will He do for us?  

Come the year of" Jubilee" what  victory is there for the wall? It is all short lived this protectionism, protection apart from God,. For there is something that does not love a wall. He teaches us that again and again; having us build walls to be torn down, an exercise in futility till we catch on and turn to Him for more than sabbaths or  Sunday comforts.

Trust in God, share with one another. God provides the perfect portion each day for those that believe on Him. Be happy with it, and give praise to Him. And ask; Wall?, do You want me to build yet another wall? And pray- maybe pray like this:  I sure hope You don't want me to build yet another wall they keep falling down and getting breached. is there something better I could be doing to serve you will for me?

 

[other one]

perfect fence would be two six foot chain link fences 50 yards apart.....   and auto weapons that kill anything in between.    And regularly set off little earth quakes that would collapse tunnels.    Would make a good place to dispose of oil waste water to create the quakes.

[Neighbor]

My part. To build a wall?  I have gone back and forth on the issue myself.  At the end, I find no justification for building a wall, as it will fail from moment one on. It will never stop anyone  from coming here that wants to come here.

What will control immigration, perhaps, is to control the money flow. If no money can leave the country as it does now with an industry set up to aid the process, available at check out counters at Slowes, Home Despot, Wally World, and  a variety of  retail shops.

We might have justifiable cause to detain and to classify all immigrants by establishing many  Ellis Island  type facilities, as holding places to check on diseases if nothing else. I do think what will happen to us is not  a defeat by some invading horde bent on destroying us, but instead a plague will hit us, something that some immigrants will carry that doesn't much bother them, but will be devastating to  people in the USA.

Over the years I have  tried to get legal status for an individual, but it turned out he really didn't want that. He was sending his income home to Mexico and really wanted to be there except he had to be here to raise the money to feed his family.  I have had several  others work under my supervision, all excellent workers, and all sending their income home to build that  four plex and a shop that they envision as their retirement  when they go home. Turns out the  "wife" at home takes the money spends it with some  guy there and the man here gets ripped off. And, I found I can't report them as illegal for that would expose me to much liability, both civil and criminal legal  issues would fall  upon me.  Least that was the advice from our Christian Law association.  So just can't do it. It seems insane to me, but that's the way it has been. So now we cure all issues with a wall? Don't think so. Nope a wall is folly as it always has been. From Fort Henry to  the Alamo stationary barriers may hold for awhile, but eventually they  fall, or just get bypassed from day one.

Israel has walls that fail to tunnel diggers. We have walls that fail to wall climbers and diggers. The Russians and East germans built a great wall  too. We flew over it,  people went under it, through it, and eventually just demanded it be torn down. Yet we  have been sold on the idea that a great big beautiful wall will be built for free and it will succeed in doing something to keep out illegals. Might as well wish upon a star and think it matters not who you are. 

Now one thing that will slow down immigration of the poor  will be the higher minimum wage demands here. If we hit $15 an hour watch all the low paying jobs done by illegals at every fast food place cease to exist. Our burgers will be flipped by machines and the order takers will be  at some headquarters at American Samoa talking to us by the same box we talk into today. We will pay by script, or cards, no cash, and  no change given. Plus no local clerk that we can smile at, as they  mumble incoherently with their own smiles, in an accent  hard to understand.

Oh it will be grand, just us, none of them.

And then crops, they will rot in the fields the first year, and never be planted again. For no lazy American person living in their parents basement will come out to work the crops, not even at $17 an hour being offered even now.

But lets rush to build a wall, for we must do something, anything, even if it is doomed from the get go. We will feel better for trying.  No, no  we can do better, we can have confidence in the faith of Jesus, and exercise it by  sharing a cup of cold water, and welcoming the sojourners into an organized and ration manner of partaking in the great prospeity that is the opportunity at America. Least if nothing else we could let them "glean the fields".

 

[Neighbor]

15 hours ago, hmbld said:

Simple wall to enforce laws.  Should we tear down prison walls too?   I kinda like having walls for my house.  

I knew a lady a wonderful Christian lady that  was led by the Holy Spirit to sell her home on the hill called Palos Verdes and buy  down on the flatland right at Santa Anita race track Santa Monica. The home waiting for her to buy had an open patio enclosure. She bought it and turned the lights on at night and waited.

They came, the hungry, the poorest of poor, the wanderers. She fed them and gave them cool water, and then clothes, and then she went to their hot sheets apartments with  up to 17 people per apartment living in them, and she brought yet more food and Bibles, all the time sharing of her Lord Jesus. Many of us were so stunned that we too were led to provide her some personal support, bringing food to her plus clothes and Bibles. Some also ventured  into those awful dwellings of the very poor, though it was scary. It is scary just to  know how poor some are, as they try to make a life for themselves and their young. And they find Jesus in that Lady, they find Jesus.

Course with a great beautiful and free wall we won't have that burden anymore. It will be grand. Maybe, but I think  the likes of that Christian lady to be far grander than any builders wall.

I will place my confidence in people that get the call to move in the name of Jesus to help the poor, and  not so much  in those that will protect the more affluent by walling out  the poor from any opportunity to do even the humble work  that is still to be found here.

[Churchmouse]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Funny response. 

 

But to the subject at hand. There is something about a wall - 

"Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:"....

It does seems to me that  there is something that does not like a wall. And yet we are about building walls, trying to become a stagnant fortress.

Forts always fall. We cannot build and hold a fort. We are a people that crush walls  ourselves and spread about the world what we declare is a better idea that God has created us with unalienable rights. And what does that mean, inalienable? what are those rights? Can we build forts to contain those rights?

I don't see that we can. And should we? What is it we are protecting? Is it of God, or is it ungodly at the core? is it the old man trying to keep the flesh imprisoned, when the spirit tells us no, instead share give up worldly things do all to the Glory of God. Is there glory to God in a wall?

Some say that is all spiritual, we must work in the secular. Really? I can't with personal integrity say I feel I am honoring the Spirit of God by separating Him  away from me  declaring I have a secular responsibility separate from my responsibility to God.  And that it is a major overruling responsibility that trumps His command to do all that I do  in His honor to bring Glory  upon Him out of appreciation for what He  is and for what has done for me. Nope, that is not doable. So a wall any wall seems a poor way to go. Yet we do build and rebuild walls of many kinds again and again and yet again. ll seems rather futile. And is that not God's point in having us do the exercise of building them  yet again. We need to learn to trust in Him that He can provide for every person every person that need that is th eperfect provision for all at every moment so that many will see Him and believe on His Son as Lord and savior. Christians have a protector a comforter given each of us by  Jesus while he builds the honeymoon cottage fo rHis bride and awaits His  Fathers declaration that it is ready, go - go for your bride now.

Just seems to me that  trying to keep  people  separate through walling up lands is not in the long range view  what is going to be declared as doing all things to the glory of God.

So the question also asked, "what is the alternative?"  Trust God in all things, pray first think, ask God, read His word,  and pray  again. Then if it is clear God wants walls,  build them to his specifications. But; don't build them to save that which is going to burn anyway without first hearing God's desire of us and His command to us. 

We are here for a higher purpose than to wall each other away from -each other. God will provide our need perfectly, if we ask and trust and depend on His word, and ask pray and think and pray. He does so for the commonest of birds, how much more will He do for us?  

Come the year of" Jubilee" what  victory is there for the wall? It is all short lived this protectionism, protection apart from God,. For there is something that does not love a wall. He teaches us that again and again; having us build walls to be torn down, an exercise in futility till we catch on and turn to Him for more than sabbaths or  Sunday comforts.

Trust in God, share with one another. God provides the perfect portion each day for those that believe on Him. Be happy with it, and give praise to Him. And ask; Wall?, do You want me to build yet another wall? And pray- maybe pray like this:  I sure hope You don't want me to build yet another wall they keep falling down and getting breached. is there something better I could be doing to serve you will for me?

 

i take it you missed my response to your last post. I covered all of this.

[Jewels7]

The Pope says walls aren't Biblical but he lives in a palace behind one. Israel is extending their wall. The great wall in China can be seen from the moon. 

Walls keep people out and in. Mexico is building a wall to the south of their border. Are we becoming a blended population or something else? And why? What part does fear have in this?

[hmbld]

37 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

I knew a lady a wonderful Christian lady that  was led by the Holy Spirit to sell her home on the hill called Palos Verdes and buy  down on the flatland right at Santa Anita race track Santa Monica. The home waiting for her to buy had an open patio enclosure. She bought it and turned the lights on at night and waited.

They came, the hungry, the poorest of poor, the wanderers. She fed them and gave them cool water, and then clothes, and then she went to their hot sheets apartments with  up to 17 people per apartment living in them, and she brought yet more food and Bibles, all the time sharing of her Lord Jesus. Many of us were so stunned that we too were led to provide her some personal support, bringing food to her plus clothes and Bibles. Some also ventured  into those awful dwellings of the very poor, though it was scary. It is scary just to  know how poor some are, as they try to make a life for themselves and their young. And they find Jesus in that Lady, they find Jesus.

Course with a great beautiful and free wall we won't have that burden anymore. It will be grand. Maybe, but I think  the likes of that Christian lady to be far grander than any builders wall.

I will place my confidence in people that get the call to move in the name of Jesus to help the poor, and  not so much  in those that will protect the more affluent by walling out  the poor from any opportunity to do even the humble work  that is still to be found here.

Wonderful!  No, I am not being sarcastic, I really mean it.  At the start of your story, you said she was lead by the Holy Spirit, that is key!  She surrendered all to be led by God.  Our nation is not all led by the Holy Spirit, and we do have laws, without enforcing these laws, all who don't care to be led by God will destroy our very society.   I support the wall Trump speaks of, not to keep the poor from opportunity, but to enforce our laws we currently have.  Speaking of poor, I as child of God offer far too little assistance to those in need.  Question is, how do I be the best steward of what God has given me?  Tear down my fence keeping the livestock inside my property lines?  Open my doors to any and all to come and live there?  Scripture tells us to give to any who is in need.  How can I determine who is in need, and who just wants to receive as many handouts as they can instead of working?