Abstinance pledgers . . . aren't ???

[other one]

how the cards worded?

I don't know either.

The thing is, what I tried to bring out was that this actually is not just a problem with "abstinance pledgers."

Teenagers throughout (no matter what their beliefs) have this concept that "other forms of sex" really aren't sex. I learned about this in my Adolescent Psychology class. We even watched a TV program dealing with adolescents (Boston Public) that reflected this attitude in one of their episodes.

It is a very odd phenomenon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neb, I was going to comment that someone needs to redefine sex, either to me or the teenagers. Looks like old Bill Clinton may have done much more do damage our young people than I realised.

sam

[apothanein kerdos]

The cards, and True Love Waits movement, puts such an emphasis on actual sex that it ignores the main point, which is abstaining mentally, spiritually, and physically...in all ways. We focus on how bad the act is outside of marriage that we forget to tell them how beautiful it is within marriage...if they understand the beauty of it in a marriage relationship, maybe they'd realize they had something worth saving.

[Guest shiloh357]

consequences....are not taught to our children....some kids in my opinion....are looking for ways around the wrong...they truly believe if they don't do exactely what is forbidden then they really aren't wrong.

Let me see if I can explain this....take a three year old for example...I'll use an example from my baby girl    She was told no you can't have another chocolate chip cookie you've had enough...you can have some more tomorrow after lunch.  I took the package of cookies and put them back in the cupboard....looked at her and said stay out of the chocolate chip cookies...ok?  she says ok....I walk away thinking that thats taken care of.  several minutes later I come out and what is she doing?  Shes eating a cookie    I look at her and say I told you no more cookies....she looks at me all innocent and says but momma its not chocolate chip    Which sounded more like choco cheep.  So as punishment this little one didn't get a single cookie for two weeks.

Now in a three year old its easier to swallow and take care of...but once they hit their teens and still pull this stunt then its just plain ugly.  I see more and more of parents not teaching their kids consequences...with all these books out now telling us not to say no to our kids...don't use negative words...blah...blah...

Just my opinion though....I could go on and on but I won't 

Love and Blessings,

Angel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's funny... I would expect that line of reasoning from a child. It's kinda cute how their minds work and how they will hold you to exactly what you said, since their reasoning skills do not go beyond the "letter of the law," so to speak.

But it is so hard to believe that teenagers can be so dumb. Is it that they really believe that other form of sex outside intercourse do not qualify as sex, or is it a willful ignorance that is used to salve the conscience? If it is the latter, it shows just how selfish that generation has become. Some people will rather believe a lie, to avoid having to face what they know is true.

Then again, my brother has 18 year old H.S. students that do not know who Colin Powell is. They can talk about every rock star on the planet, and the latest movies, but are oblivious to the major players in our government and in the world. What's worse, is that they don't really care.

I dunno, maybe it is combination of both. Both blissful ignorance, and moral indifference.

I also think SJ has good some good points. They would wait if they realized what they were saving themselves for.

[refugepsa91]

I like your way of putting it better shiloh....its a willful ingnorance...if they don't know better on purpose ( ) then they can't be held accountable.

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[georgesbluegirl]

Hmm....speaking as a teenager, I'm not quite convinced that "willfull ignorance" is quite the explanation here. The fact is, sexual activity is pretty common among the high-school set and generally accepted, so any teenager, even with a pledge and the best intentions, might indulge - maybe more out of curiousity than anything else, sometimes. Plus I think there's this thing that happens where kids (girls especially) get focused on maintaining their technical virginity and sort of dissociate that from other sexual relations, meaning "the other stuff" isn't sex because it's not intercourse and so you're still technically a virgin. I really do think most people take abstinence pledges in earnest, it's just hard work to maintain - someone above mentioned changing friends, changing what you do, where you go - so breaking the pledge happens.

That's why I think it's dumb just to teach abstinence in schools. No matter what you do or say, teenagers (and unmarried adults) will have sex. WILL. It's been happening for ages - look at all the sexual references in Shakespeare ("pen" and "sword/dagger" are persistent references). Fact is, a kid says they'll abstain and then gives in or changes their mind, but now has no point of reference as to how to protect themselves and others.

And just for the record, I don't think there was anything much Bill Clinton did to the sexual barometer of America that wasn't already done.

[Gerioke]

This is not good!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Study: Many virgins take other risks

Report suggests those who pledge abstinence try other sex

Friday, March 18, 2005 Posted: 6:00 PM EST (2300 GMT)

NEW HAVEN, Connecticut (AP) -- Teens who pledge to remain virgins until marriage are more likely to take chances with other kinds of sex that increase the risk of sexually transmitted diseases, a study of 12,000 adolescents suggests.

The report by Yale and Columbia University researchers could help explain their earlier findings that teens who pledged abstinence are just as likely to have STDs as their peers.

The latest study, published in the April issue of the Journal of Adolescent Health, found that teens pledging virginity until marriage are more likely to have oral and anal sex than other teens who have not had intercourse. That behavior, however, "puts you at risk," said Hannah Brueckner, assistant professor of sociology at Yale and one of the study's authors.

Among virgins, boys who have pledged abstinence were four times more likely to have had anal sex than teens who have remained abstinent but not as part of a pledge, according to the study. Overall, pledgers were six times more likely to have oral sex.

The pledging group was also less likely to use condoms during their first sexual experience or get tested for STDs, the researchers found.

Data for the study was taken from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health. An in-school questionnaire was given to a nationally representative sample of students in grades 7-12 and followed up with a series of in-home interviews roughly one, two, and six years later. It was funded in part by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Leslee Unruh, president of the National Abstinence Clearinghouse in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, called the study "bogus," disputing that those involved had pledged true "abstinence."

"Kids who pledge abstinence are taught that any word that has 'sex' in it is considered a sexual activity," Unruh said. "Therefore oral sex is sex, and they are staying away."

Millions of teens have signed written pledges or verbally promised to abstain from sex, part of a church-led effort to discourage premarital sex and the spread of disease. President Bush has boosted funding for abstinence-only education in schools.

Critics say that education needs to be coupled with safe-sex education to be effective.

"If adolescents only had sex in monogamous, married relationships, by definition there would be no STDs," Brueckner said, echoing President Bush's remarks in last year's State of the Union address. "But the majority of adolescents don't live like that. They do have sex."

Last year, the same research team found that 88 percent of teens who pledge abstinence end up having sex before marriage, compared with 99 percent of teens who do not make a pledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

obviously propoganda to coax young people into thinking it doesn't matter what you do so you might as well go for it.

Nothing can beat a loving family to edify kids on the rights and wrongs.

My oldest is only 5 but I keep trying to explain the blanket of corruption that smothers us to him. And pray Gods protection

[georgesbluegirl]

I never trust surveys and studies fully, since you can skew figures to your advantage, etc (for example, you might classify "sexually active" as thinking about sex or masturbation or whatever). But I must say, I know plenty more seventeen year olds who are sexually active than are not, and most of them are Christians and/or believe in God.

[nebula]

And just for the record, I don't think there was anything much Bill Clinton did to the sexual barometer of America that wasn't already done.

Hollywood and stores like Abercrombe & Finch are another story, though, aren't they?

[Guest shiloh357]

Hmm....speaking as a teenager, I'm not quite convinced that "willfull ignorance" is quite the explanation here.  The fact is, sexual activity is pretty common among the high-school set and generally accepted, so any teenager, even with a pledge and the best intentions, might indulge - maybe more out of curiousity than anything else, sometimes.  Plus I think there's this thing that happens where kids (girls especially) get focused on maintaining their technical virginity and sort of dissociate that from other sexual relations, meaning "the other stuff" isn't sex because it's not intercourse and so you're still technically a virgin.  I really do think most people take abstinence pledges in earnest, it's just hard work to maintain - someone above mentioned changing friends, changing what you do, where you go - so breaking the pledge happens.

That's why I think it's dumb just to teach abstinence in schools.  No matter what you do or say, teenagers (and unmarried adults) will have sex. WILL.  It's been happening for ages - look at all the sexual references in Shakespeare ("pen" and "sword/dagger" are persistent references).  Fact is, a kid says they'll abstain and then gives in or changes their mind, but now has no point of reference as to how to protect themselves and others. 

And just for the record, I don't think there was anything much Bill Clinton did to the sexual barometer of America that wasn't already done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the teens that I have heard of signing the cards, were in a Christian environment, and know the difference between right and wrong. The fact that they dissociate one form of sexual activity from another is an indication of willful ignorance. Willful ignorance amounts to salving your conscience by adopting a belief that in your heart is not true, but you can intellectually justify. It amounts to redefining key terms.

As far as Clinton is concerned, I remember hearing that he actually sat down with some consultants and discussed the exact definition of "sexual relations" before denying that he had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. They decided to pretend that the definition of sex was limited to intercourse only, and that was the definition they would operate from. Therefore, Clinton in his mind, was not lying.

That is willful ignorance, and it is the same type of intellectual justification kids are using to get around their pledge. But as with other sins, one thing leads to another. Temptation will eventually get the best of you if you entertain it for long.

BTW, there is no such thing as remaining "technically" a virgin. Virginity is lost in your heart long before you commit the act. The Bible teaches that we should run as far from sin as we can; not see how close we can get without actually committing the act. Those who adopt the view that they can live on the edge, have already transgressed the Word of God in their hearts.

As I said, my brother and sister-in-law, knew what signing the card meant. They knew they were agreeing to avoid ALL sexual activity, not just intercourse until they were married. The pledge was important to them, and they went to same schools, and had to live in the same culture as everyone else, but they adjusted their lives to shield them from the culture's influence. They hung out with committed Christians, and kept themselves from those things that would influence them to break their pledge.

It is a matter of self control. I could not be more proud of them, and their commitment to the Lord and to purity.

[apothanein kerdos]

Georgsgirl, you're ignoring the main teaching in abstienence that is pertaining to a mental, emotional, physical, and (for Christian teachings) spiritual abstinence. Too often we believe that it pertains only to the "actual" act of sex. Instead we are refering to the emotional impacts of sex and types of sexual activity that can cause current emotional damage or even emotional damage in marriage. We are trying to show the importance of sex and types of sexual activity within marriage and what they mean. I personally have found that once you get a teenager to realize the importance of sex and things like it they are less likely to have sex, engage in a sexual activity, or even date until they are ready to marry.